WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Lewwyn]

on phone, but I like the movement. Disagree that the most important thing is to get rid of the card. Forget that, that is a distraction. We know where the card is or should be now. We don`t need to lynch novice we just have him pass the card. If in the morning that person has it we for sure where it is. This defeats the possible scum having the card without us knowing. I mean why destroy it when you can simply play musical chairs with it so we know where it is??? Why mislynch to destroy something that doesn`t even matter? You guys realize that as long as we know where the card is any scans will be 100percent correct?

Lets lynch away from this distraction. I support a selrahc or azza lynch atm. Can`t get color to work on my phone.

Still dont get how will you guys know it is being passed.

Really???
Novice says he is going to pass it to ryan. The next day ryan wakes up and has the card. Do you still doubt where the goddamn card is?

[uberfish]

None of the anti-novice voters appear to have any arguments on why he is actually scum, as opposed to just lynching him because he has the fool card. This is awful, and whoever's village on there is making it easier for scum to hide. I think Novice's played much like I would have if I had the card and is more likely to be town atm.

The fact that this many people were willing to jump on board means that "let's just policy lynch novice" isn't necessarily a scum stance. For example I really hate azza's line of reasoning, but it's probably a null tell for him because of the belief he expressed in previous games that day 1 is a crapshoot anyway. However Rowain is still scummy he's never been one of these "day 1 is random" players and in his extensive posting he doesn't have any material on novice's alignment or really anyone else's. That last post listing why people are attacking him and vaguely accusing them of being scum doesn't help his case any. Village rowain normally moves around a lot and is not shy to specifically call people out as wolves when he doesn't like their posts, and sitting on a policy lynch with no reads on anyone's alignment is simply not what I expect from him.

Not getting dishonest vibes from Ryan (or MJW.)

Lewwyn/Pind: which posts that zakalwe made are suspicious?

[Serdoa]

on phone, but I like the movement. Disagree that the most important thing is to get rid of the card. Forget that, that is a distraction. We know where the card is or should be now. We don`t need to lynch novice we just have him pass the card. If in the morning that person has it we for sure where it is. This defeats the possible scum having the card without us knowing. I mean why destroy it when you can simply play musical chairs with it so we know where it is??? Why mislynch to destroy something that doesn`t even matter? You guys realize that as long as we know where the card is any scans will be 100percent correct?

Lets lynch away from this distraction. I support a selrahc or azza lynch atm. Can`t get color to work on my phone.

Still dont get how will you guys know it is being passed.

Because novice tells us before the night ends to whom he passes it and the one to receive it tells us the next day. Of course there are several issues with that, for example if novice is scum, then he and his buddies can pass it theoretically around them. That would not get us correct reads with the board either. Of course they would have to out more and more of the scum for that to work, but on the other hand, this game just has so many phases before it is over, so that might very well work out in the end.

Also, that issue above means that we still can't believe what the board returns as long as we do not know for certain the alignment of novice. Which we can only know for certain by either lynching him or having him scanned by item-seer and seer at the same night - if those two are both village to begin with.

So yeah, there are several issues with that. Thats also why I don't like the attitude of Selrahc. I am certain he should be able to see those issues himself, so him acting like Rowains stance is totally not understandable for a villager is hard to believe.

[uberfish]

lol, more cross posting.

So rowain vaguely fingerpoints that there are scum on his wagon and once a couple of other players attack one of them, he hops. Don't like that at all. but I'll review selrahc's posts and the case against him

[Ryan]

on phone, but I like the movement. Disagree that the most important thing is to get rid of the card. Forget that, that is a distraction. We know where the card is or should be now. We don`t need to lynch novice we just have him pass the card. If in the morning that person has it we for sure where it is. This defeats the possible scum having the card without us knowing. I mean why destroy it when you can simply play musical chairs with it so we know where it is??? Why mislynch to destroy something that doesn`t even matter? You guys realize that as long as we know where the card is any scans will be 100percent correct?

Lets lynch away from this distraction. I support a selrahc or azza lynch atm. Can`t get color to work on my phone.

Still dont get how will you guys know it is being passed.

Because novice tells us before the night ends to whom he passes it and the one to receive it tells us the next day. Of course there are several issues with that, for example if novice is scum, then he and his buddies can pass it theoretically around them. That would not get us correct reads with the board either. Of course they would have to out more and more of the scum for that to work, but on the other hand, this game just has so many phases before it is over, so that might very well work out in the end.

Also, that issue above means that we still can't believe what the board returns as long as we do not know for certain the alignment of novice. Which we can only know for certain by either lynching him or having him scanned by item-seer and seer at the same night - if those two are both village to begin with.

So yeah, there are several issues with that. Thats also why I don't like the attitude of Selrahc. I am certain he should be able to see those issues himself, so him acting like Rowains stance is totally not understandable for a villager is hard to believe.

Thats what I meant he could give it to other scum. so meh. I agree with you on Selrahc thou. But couldnt you use the same argument on uberfish?

[Ryan]

I think its brilliant how just this once item was considered. We didnt consider any other item.

[Serdoa]

None of the anti-novice voters appear to have any arguments on why he is actually scum, as opposed to just lynching him because he has the fool card. This is awful, and whoever's village on there is making it easier for scum to hide. I think Novice's played much like I would have if I had the card and is more likely to be town atm.

uberfish, from my perspective, and only looking at facts, what we know is that novice claims to have the card. Thats it. We don't know if he has it. We don't know if he is scum or village. We don't know who has the other items nor their alignments. In that case, lynching him will either lynch a liar (=not having the card) which pretty much means scum at this point. Or it does get rid of the card. That means we get a 100% certain seer. See my last post to understand (if you haven't already of course) why we won't get that otherwise.

And we all know that a good seer is extremely strong for town. Thats also a fact. So why is it so hard to believe that villagers would lynch a player that has the same chance as anyone else to be a scum but is the least hurtful mislynch, because if he is a mislynch would make it certain that the seer get correct results.

Yes, if he is villager, it is still a mislynch and yes, seer would still get correct results in that case because we knew who has the card - well, at least till the point when someone passes it to a snitch. Of course you can have the seer always check those in the night who got the card - a great way to out him in case the wolfs have the tracker.

However you put it, without any certain facts except that novice claims to have the card and without any really good leads to go on, it makes imo perfect sense to lynch him. Yes it might be a mislynch still, but on D1? Honestly, everyone has basically the same chance of being a mislynch. Being a mislynch but we getting a 100% correct seer? Yes, please.

But maybe I understand you wrong or overlook something? Can you explain me what on my logic above is wrong?


The fact that this many people were willing to jump on board means that "let's just policy lynch novice" isn't necessarily a scum stance. For example I really hate azza's line of reasoning, but it's probably a null tell for him because of the belief he expressed in previous games that day 1 is a crapshoot anyway. However Rowain is still scummy he's never been one of these "day 1 is random" players and in his extensive posting he doesn't have any material on novice's alignment or really anyone else's. That last post listing why people are attacking him and vaguely accusing them of being scum doesn't help his case any. Village rowain normally moves around a lot and is not shy to specifically call people out as wolves when he doesn't like their posts, and sitting on a policy lynch with no reads on anyone's alignment is simply not what I expect from him.

Not getting dishonest vibes from Ryan (or MJW.)

Lewwyn/Pind: which posts that zakalwe made are suspicious?
[/quote]

[Bigger]

Ryan: it really seems like you want to vote novice still, but are instead switching your vote to whoever will make you seem popular with the cool kids.

I don't like. vote who you think is guilty, even if you get shit for that. If you are a villager, that's your duty.

[Ryan]

Ryan: it really seems like you want to vote novice still, but are instead switching your vote to whoever will make you seem popular with the cool kids.

I don't like. vote who you think is guilty, even if you get shit for that. If you are a villager, that's your duty.

He isnt getting lynched. :P Even if I tried. but Selrahc makes sense to me. Serdoas arguments make sense aswell. Or am I only supposed to make a vote on arguments I create and not ones I agree with ?

[Selrahc]

So yeah, there are several issues with that. Thats also why I don't like the attitude of Selrahc. I am certain he should be able to see those issues himself, so him acting like Rowains stance is totally not understandable for a villager is hard to believe.

Rowain is castigating something that I would have done if I had the fool card.
He is doing it based on rationale that I think is unsound, or at the least particularly convoluted.
He is doing it in a way that I think belies an ulterior motive that would fit with my understanding of how he plays wolf. To wit, he is pushing his theory *hard*.

Frankly, I don't care if you agree with his rationale Serdoa. I don't. What I see is a very twisty argument from him that has moved from one potential way that this might in some way be a good wolf ploy, to a different one, to an admission that he doesn't even care if he is lynching a villager.

Novice did something that I agree with as the action that any villager with the fool card should have taken. Rowain is using that as his sole reason to get Novice lynched. That is beyond the pale, and I'm never going to agree with it. It's actively dangerous to the village to lynch based on his criteria. I'm reaching a bit in my conclusion that he has done this because he is a wolf, as opposed to just misguided, but I think it makes sense with what I know of Rowain.

You just used this excuse the very last game when you tried to distance yourself from a lynch as wolf.

Rowain, I've also used that same expression as a villager I'm fairly sure. It's an idosyncracy of my speech. I really am not attempting to distance myself from your lynch.