WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Qgqqqqq]

Then we lunch one of them and have 50:50 success rate - unless villagers lies (which is an appalling g strategy btw)

[Ryan]

Novice could say he passed it and the other were would lie and say he did while he kept it with him. You are considering that everyone will know if Novice passes it and that he has to pass it.

Then you could pass it to an innocent and bam you framed someone.

I will tell who I pass it to and that person will confirm it. Or I need to lie and have an accomplice who lies as well. Not a good scum strategy.

Or you are a villager and the person you give it to is scum and will lie about receiving it. That card just has so many holes in it. Thats why I was the idea of removing you and the card. You are also forgetting the pick pocket item that can steal it.

The first case would create a situation where one of us us clearly lying and is scum. Lynch both, and we trade a villager for a wolf, which benefits town.

The pickpocket: Only scum would steal it, so now we know that scum has the card, and guilty scand will be 100% reliable, and innocent scans 90% reliable. Plus if the item seer is town he would be able to detect the scum holding the card.

I am having trouble understanding that idea. If a scum steals it then everytime we get either innocent or guilty on the item seer it will be 50/50. Also you could lie about it being stolen. If i am understanding this wrong my apologizes.

[Qgqqqqq]

Is like to hear more from azza

[Qgqqqqq]

First the item seer clean't scan alignment, second a violated would claim it so only a scum would lie about it and therefore anyone who flips guilty under the seer will be scum.
The sake doesn't apply for innocent, but the point of seers in a Jo pm game is primarily to.catch scum. Not confirm innocents.

[Rowain]

Since I have to vote, Bigger for Mayor and Selrahc for lynch.

7 mins later (maybe realising that his vote made it 5:5 between me and Selrahc)

Uh, meant to put uberfish

[novice]

The first case would create a situation where one of us us clearly lying and is scum. Lynch both, and we trade a villager for a wolf, which benefits town.

The pickpocket: Only scum would steal it, so now we know that scum has the card, and guilty scand will be 100% reliable, and innocent scans 90% reliable. Plus if the item seer is town he would be able to detect the scum holding the card.

I am having trouble understanding that idea. If a scum steals it then everytime we get either innocent or guilty on the item seer it will be 50/50. Also you could lie about it being stolen. If i am understanding this wrong my apologizes.

If scum steals it, when we get guilty on the Ouija board it has to be scum, since a scum with the card would scan as innocent, and an innocent without the card scans as innocent. If we get an innocent result from the Ouija board there's a less than 10% chance (1 player in 16) that we actually scanned the scum holding the card.

Lying about the card being stolen is very dangerous. If the pickpocket is town he could out me, and the item seer could scan me to see if I now have the pickpocket-thingy. So I need both the pickpocket and the item seer on my team to pull that off.

[pindicator]

Well, I'm glad we have all the meaty discussions when I'm sleeping... Here's my catch-up post, but I started skimming after the 8th page of reading

uberfish: No reasons given. He immediatly voted for me when I voted novice. His reasoning so far:
a) No reason given except that he thinks that claiming the card was the right thing by novice
b) Really dislike how Rowain is trying to argue for a policy lynch on novice so my vote stays on him.
c) my opinion is that the reasoning "novice is the least bad mislynch if he's village because he has the card" is a convenient scum perspective to take since it allows people to push for Novice's lynch just by arguing about meta

In short it is Rowain thinks it is better to lynch the card and be rid of it than to lynch a random who might be normal villager. He completly disregards the possibility that novice is scum. A few games ago uberfish voted me as mayor because he was sure he could easily read me. Makes me wonder what changed.

So is that your position? All I see here is attacking uberfish's ability to read you; I'd like to know if that isn't what your case is, because that's how I read it too.

pindicator

I want to hear more from Rowain, especially in response to a lot of this novice talk that has gone on.

What more tdo you want to hear?? I have outlined (and I think with great detail) why I find novice a good lynch. You disagree with my reasoning? Fine then bring forth another target with reasons why he should be lynched but spare me that lazy approach you just did

I'm going to have to throw the lazy tag right back at you Rowain. The only reason you're giving to lynch novice is to get rid of the card. Did you have any problems with the proposal I put up earlier? -- that was what I expected you to comment on, or perhaps comment on Selrahc discussing how the Fool Card shouldn't be such as big a deal as it is, but not just repeating your original thought from the first hours of the game.

The only thing that is giving me doubts to your guilt is that this seems way too lazy for a scum rowain to do.

But this whole "let's lynch the fool card" is playing not to lose. It's defensive and passive and those are two things that I do not attribute as being normal Rowain qualities. And why are you so sure that we're going to lynch a villager today? Why so negative?

Just for my understanding what guarantees that Novice will pass the card ?

If he doesn't pass the card then we lynch him.
If he's scum and didn't have the card to begin with then they need to have someone else claim to have received the card in order to keep the ruse going.

Really???
Novice says he is going to pass it to ryan. The next day ryan wakes up and has the card. Do you still doubt where the goddamn card is?

OMG, thank you Lewwyn

Or, scum novice says he's going to pass it to scum Ryan, and instead passes it to scum Lewwyn.
Or, novice says he's going to pass it to Ryan, and Ryan denies receiving the card. Is it because novice didn't give him the card? Is it because Ryan is lying to try and get novice lynched? Is it because someone stole the card before he could pass it off?

Yes, thank you for hashing this out Azza. Village points for you.

This is exactly the reason why we have the people announce -- and the way the announcing is done can be hashed out further if we think there's a better way of if novice announces first or if the person who receives it announces first, whatever. But if the scenario that you brought up happens, then we know we have a wolf among those players! That's the whole point to announcing.

If someone stole the card then novice will have the picklock himself and can prove it by stealing someone else's card. Or we can just choose to lynch him (and be rid of the picklock, which i think is worse in wolf hands than the fool card).

The exception we're missing, that Serdoa mentioned, is if I'm village and I pass the card to scum. So a scan of the person I pass the card to will be unreliable. No big deal, I can keep the card or pass it to someone we don't want to scan. I'm open to suggestions. And as Lewwyn said, we just keep track of who has the card, and all other scans will be reliable. Or someone gets caught in a lie.

I was wondering who would bring this up (was thinking about it after I made my post last night).

I think by passing the card around and announcing the passing we cannot make judgements on the people who recently had the card. If a scum gets in halfway through and then starts lying we can't just assume everybody who had the card was scum. But we should be able to know where the misinformation started.

I also don't think the Ouija board scanner should scan the person who has the card, or the person who just had the card. Three days back should be safe distance to account for any scum lies.

Oh, you make a better point later about scum scans being 100% reliable and innocent ones being less than 100% reliable.

I'm so glad we're having this discussion with 3 hours left in the day ...

Also - I still haven't seen Rowain comment on this idea of passing the card. I don't like that.

Agree with this, I haven't seen the usual village zakalwe yet.

This is what people say in every game that I'm a villager. For what it's worth, I don't like your play much either, so far. You're just bouncing your vote around.

Other people have said it, sure. But I've been attacked in past games for getting early (and correct) village reads on you before. I haven't seen the same thing this game yet. I also remember you going after the new player (Bigger then) when we were scum together, so you going after Ryan caught my attention as well. But I don't think it's as bad as what I've seen out of Rowain.



@Serdoa -

How can you say Selrahc's language is bad and ignore Rowain's fallacy? Rowain is painting his argument into two choices for today: lynch novice to rid us of the fool card or lynch a random villager. He is negatively painting the outcome of today by not acknowledging the possibility of hitting a snitch today. I find that far worse than Selrahc's "bizarre" addition.


I'm staying on Rowain

[Qgqqqqq]

Good points pindicator .

[Ryan]

Well, I'm glad we have all the meaty discussions when I'm sleeping... Here's my catch-up post, but I started skimming after the 8th page of reading

uberfish: No reasons given. He immediatly voted for me when I voted novice. His reasoning so far:
a) No reason given except that he thinks that claiming the card was the right thing by novice
b) Really dislike how Rowain is trying to argue for a policy lynch on novice so my vote stays on him.
c) my opinion is that the reasoning "novice is the least bad mislynch if he's village because he has the card" is a convenient scum perspective to take since it allows people to push for Novice's lynch just by arguing about meta

In short it is Rowain thinks it is better to lynch the card and be rid of it than to lynch a random who might be normal villager. He completly disregards the possibility that novice is scum. A few games ago uberfish voted me as mayor because he was sure he could easily read me. Makes me wonder what changed.

So is that your position? All I see here is attacking uberfish's ability to read you; I'd like to know if that isn't what your case is, because that's how I read it too.

pindicator

I want to hear more from Rowain, especially in response to a lot of this novice talk that has gone on.

What more tdo you want to hear?? I have outlined (and I think with great detail) why I find novice a good lynch. You disagree with my reasoning? Fine then bring forth another target with reasons why he should be lynched but spare me that lazy approach you just did

I'm going to have to throw the lazy tag right back at you Rowain. The only reason you're giving to lynch novice is to get rid of the card. Did you have any problems with the proposal I put up earlier? -- that was what I expected you to comment on, or perhaps comment on Selrahc discussing how the Fool Card shouldn't be such as big a deal as it is, but not just repeating your original thought from the first hours of the game.

The only thing that is giving me doubts to your guilt is that this seems way too lazy for a scum rowain to do.

But this whole "let's lynch the fool card" is playing not to lose. It's defensive and passive and those are two things that I do not attribute as being normal Rowain qualities. And why are you so sure that we're going to lynch a villager today? Why so negative?

Just for my understanding what guarantees that Novice will pass the card ?

If he doesn't pass the card then we lynch him.
If he's scum and didn't have the card to begin with then they need to have someone else claim to have received the card in order to keep the ruse going.

Really???
Novice says he is going to pass it to ryan. The next day ryan wakes up and has the card. Do you still doubt where the goddamn card is?

OMG, thank you Lewwyn

Or, scum novice says he's going to pass it to scum Ryan, and instead passes it to scum Lewwyn.
Or, novice says he's going to pass it to Ryan, and Ryan denies receiving the card. Is it because novice didn't give him the card? Is it because Ryan is lying to try and get novice lynched? Is it because someone stole the card before he could pass it off?

Yes, thank you for hashing this out Azza. Village points for you.

This is exactly the reason why we have the people announce -- and the way the announcing is done can be hashed out further if we think there's a better way of if novice announces first or if the person who receives it announces first, whatever. But if the scenario that you brought up happens, then we know we have a wolf among those players! That's the whole point to announcing.

If someone stole the card then novice will have the picklock himself and can prove it by stealing someone else's card. Or we can just choose to lynch him (and be rid of the picklock, which i think is worse in wolf hands than the fool card).

The exception we're missing, that Serdoa mentioned, is if I'm village and I pass the card to scum. So a scan of the person I pass the card to will be unreliable. No big deal, I can keep the card or pass it to someone we don't want to scan. I'm open to suggestions. And as Lewwyn said, we just keep track of who has the card, and all other scans will be reliable. Or someone gets caught in a lie.

I was wondering who would bring this up (was thinking about it after I made my post last night).

I think by passing the card around and announcing the passing we cannot make judgements on the people who recently had the card. If a scum gets in halfway through and then starts lying we can't just assume everybody who had the card was scum. But we should be able to know where the misinformation started.

I also don't think the Ouija board scanner should scan the person who has the card, or the person who just had the card. Three days back should be safe distance to account for any scum lies.

Oh, you make a better point later about scum scans being 100% reliable and innocent ones being less than 100% reliable.

I'm so glad we're having this discussion with 3 hours left in the day ...

Also - I still haven't seen Rowain comment on this idea of passing the card. I don't like that.

Agree with this, I haven't seen the usual village zakalwe yet.

This is what people say in every game that I'm a villager. For what it's worth, I don't like your play much either, so far. You're just bouncing your vote around.

Other people have said it, sure. But I've been attacked in past games for getting early (and correct) village reads on you before. I haven't seen the same thing this game yet. I also remember you going after the new player (Bigger then) when we were scum together, so you going after Ryan caught my attention as well. But I don't think it's as bad as what I've seen out of Rowain.



@Serdoa -

How can you say Selrahc's language is bad and ignore Rowain's fallacy? Rowain is painting his argument into two choices for today: lynch novice to rid us of the fool card or lynch a random villager. He is negatively painting the outcome of today by not acknowledging the possibility of hitting a snitch today. I find that far worse than Selrahc's "bizarre" addition.


I'm staying on Rowain

pindicator I wanna hear more from you actually besides a summary and repetition of what was happening. You also magically were out of most of the discussions..

[Qgqqqqq]

Please spoiler long quotes.
Maybe he was asleep :rolleyes: