WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[MJW (ya that one)]

Are you saying if someone reports a stolen item ( say azza picks the can from me tonight), we should lynch azza before he has the chance to pass to scum pals? Of course if someone fakes the steal, that will come out when azza flips with lock pick in hand.

In any event, for a bit of meta, I think the gloves were given to the scum so they could get their hands on one of the power items. I don't think both MJW or azza are on the same team. Seems like overkill to do tasunke like that. I strongly favor MJW as town over azza for those reasons.

Are you saying you don't like the Selrahc voters, Ryan? That's how I understand your post.

[pindicator]

Hmmm, that is a good point about who is not present. I could vote for Selrahc for that, but my target hasnt posted in a while either
@novice- its more of a gut feel. Not liking zak's hunting or tone

Double voter can pick anybody, right? Or does it have to be one of Mattimeo / Waterbat?

[novice]

It's post Post: #981 novice. I might have misunderstood it or something, though.

What do you mean? You're basing your argument on it but you might have misunderstood it?

Why do you think yourself and Azza would be unlikely to both be scum, then?

[Qgqqqqq]

Warning: Wall of text, written after 1140 (as in thats where I'm caught up to )

So a while ago uberfish asked me to stop contributing on the activity and start contributing, and tbh I don't think I've ever made a case before. (I had a draft on AAAS last game but then he claimed).
Still I have some thoughts on Ryan that bare mentioning.
Firstly I think that the newbie feel is not a facade, but instead deliberately being excentuatrd by Ryan in an attempt to conform to this newbie in order to avoid suspicion with that naive feel which for me at least, gives a town read. Yet I'm left feeling that ithe way zak must've last game - giving a town read not not because if the actions but because of how he posts. Because I'm having to correct him clarify points and explain standard play. I'm left feeling like a teacher or experienced professional (slightly flattered and a bit protective - note just my thoughts even responding to Ryan).
However this is all conjecture but if another thing that feels scummy is his pushing outlets at any cost - not only is he clearly distinguishing himself from any such group, but he is also setting a precedent for his future cases, much of his points have been that his targets are lurking, which while bad play allows him a reason to gun for heaps of people and seperates. him from many if the mislynch targets.
Moreover, although uber has said the same of me, none of his cases has been original (apart from waterbat , and that was little more then a die lurker die vote until uberfish et al extended it)yet unlike me he has pushed strongly for them and sold them as such - in particular his selrahc cases when we were pursuing the azza/tasunke connection has a very self-righteous tone to it, full of why are you ignoring this case.
His lurking vendetta has also continued despite myself and others pointing out how outlets aren't all evil and vice versa.

I'm sorry if I've misrepresented you here Ryan, particularly your arguments which are easy to.miss.
I've also undoubtedly crossposted with a few (hundred).
All this said, Ryan is not my too suspect, but he is one I feel is flying under the radar a bit.
n

...

Ryan.
He did this yesterday as well, champion his targets all day, never missing a chance to ttack them - but when it comes to time to lynch , he jumps onto the candidate. Read his reasoning - first he uses it as a chance to attack selrahc (already mentally rehearsing his I told you so speech) then he blatantly ignores the actual discussion around the topic (he was convinced by serdoa. yet never offers anything further to the discussion, just restates. points others have made) and.then he talks about MJW. not defending - a wonderful argument to be sure, and one that no one can defend against.
In this way he a) makes sure he's on a target at lynchtime. b) avoids any responsibility for the lynch. and c) is seen as explaining himself without entering the discussion..

P.S I am not judging the mjw. case in this post, merely Ryan's actions.

I am not caught up yet either.

[/spoliler]

You mentioned somewhere that there was a 180 degree turn, that I changed my tack between posts - where exactly was this?
I stand by the points I made paticularly where I say he is not my main suspect (in paticular I'm interested in MJWright now) but he is definitely flying under the radar, lurking in plain sight if you will.

At the people saying I'm only setting claims on lurking . I am sorry but I disagree . My claims on Novice day 1 matched Rowains that its better to remove the fool card + a potential lynch .

Selrhac I postedy reasons that he is not contributing to the discussion we have but does a rando meta post . I said he is being hypocritical the way he changes his idea about vigilante shot and he did change them once at start then before the day 1 dead line and then after I called him on it . I wrote all of these several times and yes lurking was included vs him but it wasn't the basis of the entire argument .

Waterbat my arguments against him were agreed on by everyone or a majority. He isn't a village and he was prob THE lynch until we decided to keep him just because we needed the gas can since there is no other form of protecting . I called him a liar due to one post that he explained was merging and that he didn't mean it the way it was written. He wasn't contributing to the discussion but providing sumarries of what was being said. He was reacting angrily and rudely . He also claimed that i was wrong and i corrected him based on quotes he said and i said. That's the basis of my arguments vs him . I did not state anything massively incorrectly and kept holding on to it .

I won't let people undermine my arguments saying that it is incorrect *mat* that it was solely based on lurking *q and waterbat* when they aren't . If you are considering that when I wrote that we should focus on the people not talking and leave the item discussions to day 3 then I am sorry you ARE wrong . Waterbat you would have still kept my vote if you hadn't claimed gas can where I was the first to say the item is important and If I follow my list of people in how much I feel they are and said it was Selrahc . Which was not influenced by anyone . Also I find it funny that Matt is mentioning me because I said we shouldn't ignore him and focus on people we don't have a read on .


On a side note , you guys advised to form my own ideas and not just follow people blindly which I have done and now you are judging me for it.

If this was addressed to me (and in response to my post) then I did nott realise it at the time.
My point is more that you always use lurking as a fall-back point - yes you have been engaged in other cases and justified them in different ways, but it all comes down to lurking.
I disagree about changing selrahcs mind - people change their minds abiut stuff, its irrelevant.
You are right he hasn't contributed much, yet how is this different from lurking? (which btb a large percent of the village is doing anyway)

Waterbat case yes there was a reasonable consensus on him as a lu=ynch candidate, yet I would heasitate to say you had contributed to the case on him, all I ever heard from you until others mentioned it was his lurking.
I also don't understand the last paragraph.

I don't see this quote really responding to me, and if it was intended as such, I'm not seeing it.

And before someone claim I am copying or whatever read my posts I haven't changed a single claim I said vs Selrhac since night 1 my vote vs him was the first vote today. And my claims are matching what everyone is saying that he avoids discussion . And I will respond like this if of anyone's claim is I'm a nub , he's wrong , he only cares about lurking . Because that is neither right or fair .

I struggle reading this - what point are yopu trying to make?

[spoiler]

MJW for what Serdoa wrote and my own.

MJW[/color], Edit : my own reasons

Which are...?

I thought you were big on Selrahc. I like Selrahc as the lynch more than MJW because MJW has contributed more. I also agree with the use of shooting Tasunke although i hadnt considered the point Serdoa made about just beimg patient until day 3. I figured if Azza was lying then someone else would claim the picks.
...

Zak

MJW has been pretty aggressive vs me since day one so it might be a grudge but pindicator. You did read Serdoas post its pretty convincing tbh and Selrhac is always here. I think Serdoas post is more convincing . You have someone who changes his mind every few minutes, doesnt participate in discussions *Selrahc* VERSUS someone with very wild claims, He killed someone in mid day realy early before he even responded. From day 1 he said that he thought I was the scum but voted Tasunke. Today he thinks Azza or me are scum but killed Tasunke. Is voting for the person me and Serdoa started voting for. I dunno man. I still keep getting the nag that A) that is how Selrahc plays according to you people , B) why isnt he defending himself? Shouldnt scum defend? . Those are very big doubts in my mind vs lynching Selrhac but I dont know it seems more likely to be MJW . KIll someone who is wanted dead. Become a confirmed town. If people are happy about the kill state the reasons they are happy for . Which we all did before he even was asked why. I am not 100% surre pindicator if you have anything contradictory to what I am saying or If i am missing something speak now or be forever silent :P

The exchange that prompted my post.
First I'm not seeing the MY OWNM REASONS here.
He voted tasunke because you weren't on the block (this is rather obvious), he voted selrahc (who cares?) blah blah blah
...
And thats it?
The rest is just conjecture mentioned by others, and yet ryan tries to pass it off as his own.
I do realise now what you meant about him not defending himself (I thought you were passing it off as as scum tell ).


Umm as it turns out I didn't multiquote past here, so I'll do that in a seperate post.

[zakalwe]

I'm here now, Pindicator.

As for Zak, i didnt like his reaction when i mentioned him day 1. Re-reading day 1 i dont like how everything he says is confined to novice and tasunke- i think village zak wouldnt want to get stuck into just looking at two people day 1. And i dont like how he thinks wayerbat is scummy but we shouldnt lynch him. Last time i saw zak make an argument like that he was scum.

Those were the topics of the day, I don't think I was any more guilty of focusing on that than anyone else. IIRC I did interact with a few other players, too. Don't know what to say about the Waterbat part. He has a chance to prove his innocence tonight. Or at least he did, before Brick changed the rules. So it makes sense to give him that chance.

I'm happy to stay on Merovech. Nobody seems to have a town lean on him, and yet he hasn't gained any traction.

[Serdoa]

I killed Tasunke because there was no way he was going to live. It was obvious that ether Tasunke or Azza would have to hang because one of them was lying. I felt that there was no way that Tasunke could lose to Azza. The bad things that Azza has done where lurking and having a slightly scummy item. So I gave the town an extra lych with enough time to talk about it. If I were wolf I would wait to try and draw out the true vig (if tasunke was not it) and give less time from the town to talk about the lych. And if Azza somehow got himself lyched it would have been even worse for the village. (Unless both Azza and I are both scum but that seems unlikely for reasons waterbat pointed out.)

Serdoa, am I right that it is in the bolded sentence that you think MJW leaked information that only scum would have?

MJW (or anyone): What are the "reasons waterbat pointed out", that you're referring to?

Yes. "If Azza somehow got himself lynched it would have been even worse for the village." Why? We do not know Azzas alignment and he himself calls him scummy in the same post. I can see that as an explanation AFTER he shot and could be certain that Tasunke lied, but he gives that as part of the explanation why he shot in the first place.

Or the question you asked him yourself, why he thinks it is unlikely that Azza and he are both scum. He uses that to give more weight to him being town yet now states he might have misunderstood the argument itself. What? How shall I believe that the thought process that led to him using the gun was that of a villager? All that he presented here indicates for me that he can't explain coherently his thought process. Which leads me to believe that he is scum, that has to come up with reasons because the real reason can't be told.

Btw: Thats also why I didn't want others to tell why village MJW should have done that. Yeah there might be reasons to do it as villager, but I want him to explain why he did it, not have others deliver him the reason. Because as scum it can be hard to actually find those village-reasons without tripping in the process.

I killed Tasunke because there was no way he was going to live. It was obvious that ether Tasunke or Azza would have to hang because one of them was lying. I felt that there was no way that Tasunke could lose to Azza. The bad things that Azza has done where lurking and having a slightly scummy item. So I gave the town an extra lych with enough time to talk about it. If I were wolf I would wait to try and draw out the true vig (if tasunke was not it) and give less time from the town to talk about the lych. And if Azza somehow got himself lyched it would have been even worse for the village. (Unless both Azza and I are both scum but that seems unlikely for reasons waterbat pointed out.)

Serdoa, am I right that it is in the bolded sentence that you think MJW leaked information that only scum would have?

MJW (or anyone): What are the "reasons waterbat pointed out", that you're referring to?

It's some obsure post that waterbat in this thread had. He said something that it would be overkill for mafia to have the box or the lockpicks. So that means azza and I cannot be on the same team. So that means both of us cannot be wolfs. I'll go track down that post now.

[uberfish]

Ok we need to consolidate votes somewhere. Novice, I'm voting zakalwe because I don't like how he presented his group of 3 suspects. In particular he didn't seem to have any reason to suspect MJW and has just been flipping his vote around between his 3 targets.

I don't like either Selrahc or Merovech's lack of contribution to the game today, I feel Merovech's inability to come up with much of a case for anything could be an "inexperienced scum" tell.

On the fence about MJW.

[pindicator]

Zak- Merovech is your vote, but who's your second most suspicious person?

Also, have you commented on Selrahc? His absense does have me wondering

[Serdoa]

Don't know what to say about the Waterbat part. He has a chance to prove his innocence tonight. Or at least he did, before Brick changed the rules. So it makes sense to give him that chance.

Btw: I really think that change is not fair. If I would do meta-speculation, I would have to believe that it was done to give scum a leg-up after they got hurt so badly N1. And imo it is not part of the GM to change the rules WHILE playing, just because one side might be at a disadvantage. It is not his job to (re)balance the game while playing.

I can see why it might be better for game-balance (and I have not disputed it when he changed it the first time while we were playing) but I can't get the thought out of my head that the wolves just whined about how unfair it is that village can confirm itself quickly enough that they basically have kills locked in for them. What I would fully understand because it is not fun at all. Gah, yes, it certainly is better to keep it fun for all, but I hate taking a disadvantage. Give me a least a gas can, pretty please?

[zakalwe]

Ok we need to consolidate votes somewhere. Novice, I'm voting zakalwe because I don't like how he presented his group of 3 suspects. In particular he didn't seem to have any reason to suspect MJW and has just been flipping his vote around between his 3 targets.

I don't like either Selrahc or Merovech's lack of contribution to the game today, I feel Merovech's inability to come up with much of a case for anything could be an "inexperienced scum" tell.

On the fence about MJW.

I had somewhat related reasons for suspecting Mattimeo and Merovech, as quoted by Novice recently. I also think they are independently suspicious for their play in general. Like I said from the outset about MJW, it's harder to articulate anything specific against him. But I thought it was slightly unlikely that both the Tommy Gun and the vig gun would be assigned to town. I think he defended pretty well against that, though. I see what Serdoa is getting at with his recent attack, but I think it may be based on a misunderstanding. MJW was talking from the perspective of "how would I play this as scum" and Serdoa read it as "why I did this as town". But maybe I'm the one who has misparsed it, I haven't had time to consider it very carefully.

@Pindicator. My second preference would be Mattimeo. But it's a pretty even field. I said earlier about Selrahc that he'd make a decent lynch but I think it's a likely mislynch. Right now I think he's a mystery - why would he still not post anything in the ways of reads, after so much prodding? It seems kind of suicidal, if he's scum.