WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[MJW (ya that one)]

Well, not much has happened. I did not consider that the seer would pass the board to a scry. If he did he it may not be a good idea to role-claim as the scum can find out who has the board. The night-vig and selrahc still need to show up though...

[Mattimeo]

I do have double vote.

I was not that confident about my day 1 vote, since I wasn't going to be around for pretty much the entire second day of discussion. I didn't want to leave two votes on someone, allowing them to more easily become a scum patsy, espcially if relevant information came up that would result in me moving my vote if I was capable of it (since people usually claim later on day 1, and Tasunke in particular will generally make a claim if it's applicable).

I did not know that it would show up immediately (well, at the next official vote count). I was under the impression it would show up only in the final tally, like most previous double votes we've had.

uber - while I agree that we don't need to wait around for claims before doing anything, I still think the day 1 vig (at least) should claim. We know they're not dead, we lose nothing if they do, and while it's basically unverifiable, it'll give us a garunteed town. If scum claim as well we have a 50% chance of hitting scum.
(assuming no-one does something retarded like claiming to have been vig while they were town)

[Lewwyn]

Lewwyn, zak... guys, start playing for real, ok? You are better than what was provided so far. I know the thread was hard to follow the last days, but it should be getting better now and I really hope you will provide more. Imo we had several posts that were at least worthwhile to question, and I really am surprised why no one is doing it (no, I can't, I am questioning so much already that it is ignored mostly). Also, if someone provides a case and you are uncertain about it, question it. Get it explained. Don't just ignore it.

Whoa whoa whoa. I AM playing for real! I told you Rowain and novice were likely both villagers Day 1 and we should vote away from that. I told you I thought Mero was a bad lynch and that his arguments were good. I told you I didn't trust Azza or Zak. I also have said I am leaning villager on MJW and I've explained why in every single instance. If I had been on at 6AM for the deadline I would've voted Selrahc and lynched him over Mero who I thought was innocent. I actually think my reads have been for the most part correct!

I think we lynch one of Zak or Selrahc personally.

Let me just say that Zaks three M's post has got to be one of the scummiest posts in the game. Mattimeo, MJW and Mero. I have, as I said, a village lean on MJW. Mero as we all know was innocent. And after reading Mattimeo's posts since I put pressure on him I've actually thought he's been more villagery. And he doesn't care which one.

Yesterday you and novice just followed Zak into a mislynch.

[Lewwyn]

I don't think we should sit and wait for the vig and the ojiua board, or however you spell, it to claim. I think those are valuable claims that can be made as traction is being gained on a person. Though I wouldn't wait to claim close to the deadline.

*waterbat you did not pass the gascan to novice, correct? You don't need to tell us who you gave it to just confirm that it wasn't lost when he died. I don't think we ever got a confirmation on whether Brick would reveal items that had been lost in transfer to a dead person.

[Azza]

Also Azza - what was your reasoning behind using the picklock on Tasunke? I think that's a very high risk / low reward item to use, especially if you steal from a snitch.

Simple. He alluded to having a powerful item, likely the gun. If he was scum, it had to be taken from him, and if he was village, I didn't trust him to be able to use it effectively. I honestly thought he was scum based on how he'd been playing, and when catching him out lying I was certain of it, but apparently he was just playing a terrible village game...

Thats Azzas explanation for why he stole from Tasunke. He says he honestly thought that Tasunke was scum. That would be fine, but his explanation for the case that Tasunke would in fact be village ist

"I didn't trust him to be able to use if effectively"

I can understand the general sentiment here. But as village, that actually makes not much sense. Tasunke would not be able to use that strong item more than once (pistol, board are passed). But he would be able to use it before Azza can steal it. Shouldn't Azza have realized that as villager, thinking about his steal? I sure would check that.

Much more, for the case that Tasunke is a villager, should the reasoning not read more along the lines "I thought due to his hinting that he would probably be nightkilled, and so I could at least save the item"? Something along the lines of actually helping the village? But it reads more like Tasunke-bashing ("he wouldn't know how to use it"). That does not sit right with me, it does simply not sound like a villager player for his villages win.

My impression of Tasunke's day 1 and night 1 play was that he was playing a very anti-town game. If I steal it, at least it's in pro-town hands. I stand by my reasons, even if you don't believe them to be village. I did what I believed was best to limit the damage a vig Tasunke who was threatening to kill me could do.

@Azza Where you considering the fact that if you had aimed for a scum that doesnt have a good item and you gave him that lock pick. You were basically empowering the Mafia with the ability to steal items? good items potentially? That even if you stole any of those items we had nothing to gain since we dont know what aligment has each item ?

Tasunke with a gun scares me a lot less than Tasunke with lockpicks. Especially when Tasunke is playing an anti-town game that's trying to get me killed.

Regarding azza. I'll say that the pro-village argument I expected for stealing from Tasunke would have been "to see if he was lying" and he'd have gotten village points if he had said that. "I didn't trust Tasunke with the gun" is neutral - hell I probably wouldn't trust Tasunke with a gun either due to his chaotic style of play. What I don't like about azza is that he didn't do anything on day 2 after Tasunke got shot except to dump his vote on Selrahc for lurking. I take a pretty unfavourable view of lurkers who accuse other lurkers of lurking. Of course that's what merovech did too and he flipped town so But with azza we do have an example of his play in WW17 where he truthfully claimed roleseer when he was scum, and was subsequently overlooked for the rest of the game. So there are a few meta reasons to suspect azza

I do think whomever got the lockpick from Azza, if it has been passed on as he said he would, should claim it.

I didn't pass on the lockpick because (iirc) no one thought it'd be a good idea.

I was annoyed with the whole Tasunke thing being completely useless, so I sort of checked out of the game for a bit. Let some of the frustration die down. My Selrahc vote wasn't because he was lurking as such, it was because he hadn't made a case all day, just meta speculation.

With the meta side of things on me, I think it's a pretty different situation to WW17. I only claimed then when forced to, and my claim was to justify my own actions. This was a direct attack on another player very early in the game.

[pindicator]

I'm on board with Lewwyn. Let's lynch zakalwe; I'm feeling good he turns up as scum. I don't think zak has been showing the signs that a villager shows, or the effort. When I called him on it day 1, I got this for a response:

Agree with this, I haven't seen the usual village zakalwe yet.

This is what people say in every game that I'm a villager. For what it's worth, I don't like your play much either, so far. You're just bouncing your vote around.

This gets a red flag. I've voted zakalwe for mayor day 1 on the last 3 times we've played with mayors. And yet Zak's reaction to me saying that I don't see the normal village zak is "Everybody thinks I'm scum" and then attacking my play? There isn't the sense that he thinks we're on the same team; you can see that in his tone, how he lashes out against me. Much like how Bigger lashed out when I questioned him:

And your day 1 was better? Or anyone's day 1, for that matter.

See - villagers don't know who the enemy is. They ask questions of each other, try to feel out the other person and have to make up their minds if this person is their friend or a foe. But scum knows who the enemy is from the start. And Zak's tone in this is not questioning whether I'm friend or foe - it is very much antagonistic. Much like Bigger's tone was when I questioned him.

[Lewwyn]

I'm think I'm actually against an Azza lynch today seeing as how if Azza was scum he didn't need to out Tasunkke right away. There's no reason to do so since the real vig will simply claim vig the next day after the item has been passed. This way scum don't have to reveal the lockpicks just to get Tasunke lynched. Tas is GOING to get lynched when the real vig pops up day 3. Why does Azza, as scum, want to protect the real vig from having to reveal? Why does Azza, as scum, want to out Tasunke as soon as possible instead of saving the tasunke mislynch and distraction for another day?

I've been thinking about it and I dont buy it. More and more Azza seems like a villager who was eager to out Tasunke because he thought he found scum. I don't think he even thought about protecting the vigs true identity. I mean if it were me, I would have jumped on tasunke too. Everyone loves to do gotchas. Scum would have discussed the scenario in their QT. They would have realized by waiting they could actually gain MORE information and more confusion and buy more time down the road.

The more I think about it the more I give Azza a village lean.

[Ryan]

@zak I am sorry but what you said made zero sense. The Vigi and the seer are forced to pass if they used their item first night unless you were proposing that the seer shouldn't use his items when we have its counter the fool card on a confirmed townie ? Also why are you so scared of the seer confirming his target ? He has no powers now to lose . If he passes it to his target he doesn't need to say the name . Or are you afraid of having more confirmed town alive ? Are you afraid that the scum won't be able to reveal if the Vigi and the seer reveal and we have 2 confirmed towns ? If the seers target was inno he is also a confirmed town why are you so afraid zak ?

[Ryan]

@ überfish you do realize that we are three town for 1 mafia till now ? That the town deaths were lynches that were random ? We couldn't get you guys off Rowain day 1 , I am kicking my self for not voting Selrahc like I should have that day . You still want to have a lynch like that while we can have 2-3 confirmed town ? Seer doesn't have to reveal his target if he gave it to him . But yes he should reveal since he has nothing to lose also the first powerless Vigi now Should claim his role since again he has nothing to lose. Why are you so afraid of that like Zak ? You don't want confirmed towns ?

You are keeping my vote über . You influenced the two mislynches aswell.

[pindicator]

Ryan, I think you are making some excellent points. I could be persuaded to switch to uberfish, but I feel more sure of zakalwe.