WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Lewwyn]

I don't completely agree with you Lewwyn.

Since when has that ever happened.

[zakalwe]

@zak I am sorry but what you said made zero sense.

Yeah, I forgot about the part where they have to pass it if they used it. So disregard that. Anyway, my conclusion was that we shouldn't wait for them to claim. Uberfish and Serdoa make good points on why this is still true.

Let me just say that Zaks three M's post has got to be one of the scummiest posts in the game. Mattimeo, MJW and Mero. I have, as I said, a village lean on MJW. Mero as we all know was innocent. And after reading Mattimeo's posts since I put pressure on him I've actually thought he's been more villagery. And he doesn't care which one.

Yesterday you and novice just followed Zak into a mislynch.

"And he doesn't care which one". You're just parroting that from Uberfish. Do you actually agree with his assessment? What makes you think I didn't care which one? By the end of the day I spoke up against lynching MJW, even though Serdoa was pushing heavily for him. So that leaves two people I was willing to lynch, and I ended up voting for the one who had traction. How is it scummy? I really don't think you're being honest here. You're also misrepresenting facts when you say I led a myslynch yesterday. I didn't lead anything yesterday, IMO. I just became part of an emerging consensus. If anyone led the Merovech lynch, it was Novice. I'm not saying that to dodge responsibility, but to show that you're twisting the truth to paint me as suspicious.

I'm on board with Lewwyn. Let's lynch zakalwe; I'm feeling good he turns up as scum. I don't think zak has been showing the signs that a villager shows, or the effort. When I called him on it day 1, I got this for a response:

Agree with this, I haven't seen the usual village zakalwe yet.

This is what people say in every game that I'm a villager. For what it's worth, I don't like your play much either, so far. You're just bouncing your vote around.

This gets a red flag. I've voted zakalwe for mayor day 1 on the last 3 times we've played with mayors. And yet Zak's reaction to me saying that I don't see the normal village zak is "Everybody thinks I'm scum" and then attacking my play? There isn't the sense that he thinks we're on the same team; you can see that in his tone, how he lashes out against me. Much like how Bigger lashed out when I questioned him:

And your day 1 was better? Or anyone's day 1, for that matter.

See - villagers don't know who the enemy is. They ask questions of each other, try to feel out the other person and have to make up their minds if this person is their friend or a foe. But scum knows who the enemy is from the start. And Zak's tone in this is not questioning whether I'm friend or foe - it is very much antagonistic. Much like Bigger's tone was when I questioned him.

@zak I am sorry but what you said made zero sense. The Vigi and the seer are forced to pass if they used their item first night unless you were proposing that the seer shouldn't use his items when we have its counter the fool card on a confirmed townie ? Also why are you so scared of the seer confirming his target ? He has no powers now to lose . If he passes it to his target he doesn't need to say the name . Or are you afraid of having more confirmed town alive ? Are you afraid that the scum won't be able to reveal if the Vigi and the seer reveal and we have 2 confirmed towns ? If the seers target was inno he is also a confirmed town why are you so afraid zak ?

This is very subjective, Pindicator. I said I don't like your play. That's more of a critique than an accusation. I was holding back a bit there because I did think we could be on the same team. I don't think it's very similar to how Bigger reacted, but even if it were, the questions were posed at different times, they were different questions, we are two different people, and in short I question the relevance. I know from experience that it's virtually impossible to defend against accusations based on "tone reading", so there's not much more I can say on this. Just keep in mind how easy it is to read the wrong intent into a sentence depending on what your expectations are to begin with.

Anyway, I like your attack better than Lewwyn's attack. It looks like you are trying to explain your feelings, while Lewwyn is just trying to paint me as guilty. I was too reluctant to lynch Lewwyn the last time he did this to me.

Lewwyn

[zakalwe]

Eh, sorry about the double Ryan quote.

[Selrahc]

Useless. All this post has done is say Azza's claim a null tell and that "he could well be a wolf". What does that mean?

Let me flesh it out a little then.

Azza has devoted a large portion of his posts to his playwith the lockpick. I think the play itself was quite straight forward, and gives me a null tell.

I think his talking about the play has been quite intransigent. The situation seems fairly simple to me, but Azza has been so unforthcoming that I almost get the impression he wanted to parlay it into something more, and didn't want to jeopardize things by getting too specific or forthright in his defence.

I also don't think he has contributed much in terms of use of the lockpick. It's an item that is, at best, hard to use for the village. His day 1 usage shows that he was thinking about it a bit, but since then I don't think I've seen him suggest any ideas for proactively using it. The lockpick does have some minor village uses that I can think of, but Azza doesn't seem that interested in them.

That's why I've got a scum tell on him.

[zakalwe]

I do have double vote.

I was not that confident about my day 1 vote, since I wasn't going to be around for pretty much the entire second day of discussion. I didn't want to leave two votes on someone, allowing them to more easily become a scum patsy, espcially if relevant information came up that would result in me moving my vote if I was capable of it (since people usually claim later on day 1, and Tasunke in particular will generally make a claim if it's applicable).

I did not know that it would show up immediately (well, at the next official vote count). I was under the impression it would show up only in the final tally, like most previous double votes we've had.

If Tasunke gave some extremely compelling claim while you were away, the votes would probably have swung elsewhere, anyway. An extra vote that doesn't show up until after the deadline (the way you thought it worked) would be very valuable in terms of possibly tripping up scum. Also, there's the obvious game theoretical aspect that two town votes are better than one, even if you were just to assign them both randomly. In short, if you're innocent, then I think you made the wrong decision to not use the double vote on day 1.

Also, you are contradicting yourself here.

"I didn't want to leave two votes on someone, allowing them to more easily become a scum patsy,"

"I was under the impression it would show up only in the final tally,"

If you didn't think your double vote would show up until the final tally, how would it make Tasunke a scum patsy?

[zakalwe]

I also don't think he has contributed much in terms of use of the lockpick. It's an item that is, at best, hard to use for the village. His day 1 usage shows that he was thinking about it a bit, but since then I don't think I've seen him suggest any ideas for proactively using it. The lockpick does have some minor village uses that I can think of, but Azza doesn't seem that interested in them.

Not everybody spends all their time concocting creative schemes for item usage. Are you seriously saying you have a scum lean on Azza for not coming up with a bunch of meta-theories on how to exploit the lock picks?

[Selrahc]

Not everybody spends all their time concocting creative schemes for item usage. Are you seriously saying you have a scum lean on Azza for not coming up with a bunch of meta-theories on how to exploit the lock picks?

Sure.
In that, if he had come up with a creative use of lockpicks to help the village, I would have given him some village cred.

[Serdoa]

I hate to, but I have to agree with Selrahc here. If you have an item, I can't believe that as villager you would not think about how to use it best for the village. Thats why I made my night-post voting for Azza, exactly because he did not come up with any compelling reasoning that was intended to help the village. Just his "I didn't trust Tasunke to use it effectively". Thats all?

I explained all that last night, and actually zak, if you don't believe in that reasoning, why didn't you question me about it today? I get the feeling I simply get ignored when I am on certain targets.

[Lewwyn]

Wall of Text on Zak. Please read.

Anyway, I like your attack better than Lewwyn's attack. It looks like you are trying to explain your feelings, while Lewwyn is just trying to paint me as guilty. I was too reluctant to lynch Lewwyn the last time he did this to me.

Lewwyn

You are so careful Zak. This is how the wolves have won most of these games recently. They've gotten better. Better wolves better at both balancing post count, saying the right things, being even, attacking appropriately, acting like scumhunting but not really. I mean look at your response to me about considering Mero scum based on a post he made about waterbat:

Maybe it would be better to just lynch him today, gas can be damned, but I don't see how my stance is anti-town. (If you can explain how it really is, then I will change it.)

This in a nutshell. Unlike other wolves though you're pretty good at reading what people see as wrong in your stance and you change it automatically. You've been agreeable all game. Sliding onto easy targets and for the most sticking with the crowd. Here's part of an example:

I agree that Uberfish has NOT been an engaged villager this game. He's been quite detached IMO.

I have also been somewhat detached in this game. So have you, it seems. So maybe one of us is scum (it's not me). Or maybe there's just something about this game that fails to engage us.

I'm fine with MJW's defense for now, so I'll go with Merovech. Still willing to lynch Mattimeo, too, just for the record.

Nice Zak you first excuse any "distancing" by saying you've been detatched. Then you conect yourself to Uber and myself as well trying to indicate that your distance is acceptable. But its not. And it wasn't true that I've been detatched either. The other part of this is that you're setting up a few lynch targets at once and making it seem like you are fine with either. Of course you are. You selected them. The way you phrase it though is to make the rest of the village make the choice and make you seem like you don't really have anything to do with getting them lynched. But you started the Mero lynch. And I defended against it before I went to bed. Even so:

Those were the topics of the day, I don't think I was any more guilty of focusing on that than anyone else. IIRC I did interact with a few other players, too. Don't know what to say about the Waterbat part. He has a chance to prove his innocence tonight. Or at least he did, before Brick changed the rules. So it makes sense to give him that chance.

I'm happy to stay on Merovech. Nobody seems to have a town lean on him, and yet he hasn't gained any traction.

Wait what? Nobody has town lean on him? Because I certainly did. And I stated SEVERAL reasons why, directly to you in fact. Convenient of you to forget something I had directly addressed to you when it suited your purpose not to remember, after I went to bed and couldn't respond no less.

You've been extremely calm all game long. Last night you sortof got up in arms at Pindi for a moment about easy targets. But he was right you have picked easy targets. Maybe that's why you felt that was a place you needed to put some emotion into it. Let's look at who you voted in order of votes:

Day 1:

1) Waterbat
2) Tasunke
3) Rowain
4) Tasunke

Day 1 Deadline

Now looking at this I see no real scumhunting. Your usual Day 1 motif is too look around much more than this. Not get caught up in something that is a distraction. Better yet, you voted from Rowain to Tasunke, when it didn't matter Rowain had the most votes and your move to Tasunke simply tightened the race. Thats great for trying to set up a mislynch the next day! And this is crazy but why did you switch to Rowain in the first place? :

For now, I'll go with Rowain, since Tasunke claims an item.

@MJW. If we're going with a policy lynch instead of actively aiming for scum, I'd rather lynch Azza or Waterbat than Novice.

Will try to catch up now, only skimmed.

Right ok! But then you switch to Tasunke with for no reason at the end of the day! Your reason:

Tasunke

Why this switch, Zak?

Eh, I figured if Tasunke got lynched by a quick late run that might be a good thing after all.

What's the final tally?

OMG yes! I'm getting huge villager vibes from this awesome explanation that directly ignores your earlier explanation for not voting Tasunke. Beautiful Zak, Beautiful.

Day 2:

1) Mattimeo
2) Tasunke
3) Waterbat
4) Q
5) Mero
6) Mattimeo
7) Mero

Let's start with your initial vote on Mattimeo...:

Mattimeo hasn't done much so far, and he supported Bigger as mayor back here:

Surprised no-one's brought up the fact that a counter-claim of miller would give us one garunteed scum out of two people. Seems a pretty good exchange rate for town, even if we hit wrong the first time.
As people have said, straight up claiming miller first thing is pretty much the strongest thing you can do with that role. Rowain

Bigger is apparently already mayor, so I don't see why we should be changing that

Right! So because he voted for Bigger he must be scum. Beyond that you give no other reason for Mattimeo in that post.

Then we have the Obv vote for Tas.

Then we have the attack on waterbat as well, who never actually lied but said he was planning on it. Why would he tell the village he was going to lie if he were scum?? Anyway easy vote again.

Then onto Q... but there's no real reasoning there.

Then Zak comes up with his 3 M post. Yay. scum hunting at its finest. "Hey village pick one of these 3 and I'll help lynch them."

Anyway I think his arguments against Matt were unfounded. I then put together a case against Mattimeo just to show how Matt was scummier than Mero. Zak votes for him and says, "oh yeah I like that. I'm flexible." I bet you are Zak. (that came out a lot dirtier than I intended...)

Anyway I've gone over earlier why Zak's votes on Mero were suspect and how he blatantly ignored my protestations once I had gone to bed. He presented Mero as someone who no one had a read on and it was strange that no one was voting for him. Yeah it was strange that no one was voting for a guy who was basically active, open and scum hunting. Good one.

In the end Zak hasn't really come after any targets who have put up any real defenses. Q is probably the only one who put up some real resistance instead of letting himself be led to slaughter. Pindi's indictment of Zak during the night was accurate. That's why Zak had to cover it with some emotion, followed up with a vote and discredit attempt of Pindi.

How you like me now Zakalwe.

[zakalwe]

I hate to, but I have to agree with Selrahc here. If you have an item, I can't believe that as villager you would not think about how to use it best for the village. Thats why I made my night-post voting for Azza, exactly because he did not come up with any compelling reasoning that was intended to help the village. Just his "I didn't trust Tasunke to use it effectively". Thats all?

I explained all that last night, and actually zak, if you don't believe in that reasoning, why didn't you question me about it today? I get the feeling I simply get ignored when I am on certain targets.

It's not the same thing. I did agree with you about Azza giving a poor explanation for his motives. But the way I read it, Selrahc wants Azza to be proposing additional ways to exploit the lock picks, beyond what's already transpired. I have no idea what he is getting at, really, but I see no reason to expect Azza to spam us with speculation along those lines. It's the kind of theorizing that Selrahc loves to do, but I think it's pretty silly to call Azza scum for not doing that.