WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[uberfish]

This was peak d1 Selrahc vote count as posted by brick with 53 minutes remaining:

Official Lynch Vote Count

Rowain - 7 - uberfish, novice, pindicator, Tasunke, Selrahc, Qgqqqqq, zakalwe
Selrahc - 6 - Serdoa, Rowain, Lewwyn, Merovech, MJW, Ryan
Tasunke - 2 - Bigger, Mattimeo
novice - 1 - Azza
zakalwe - 1 - waterbat

Players not voting: None

I'll note that just prior to this MJW flipped from tasunke to put selrahc on 6-6 and zak responded by putting rowain to 7-6. then bigger also moves to rowain (8-6)

azza flips novice -> tasunke
MJW flips selrahc -> tasunke
serdoa flips selrahc -> tasunke
ryan flips selrahc -> tasunke
zak flips rowain -> tasunke

The first move to rowain/selrahc is a town read for MJW because of the timing - MJW's move led to both bigger and zakalwe flipping to rowain which from scum POV would be the likely mislynch target they don't really want to be on. However, that's partially cancelled by MJW switching back to Tasunke once Azza flipped to him (which pretty much killed any chances of selrahc being lynched d1 as it was now 8-5.)

Zak then flips at the end in order to avoid blame for the Rowain lynch.

anyway I don't think we can clear or condemn any of our current suspects over this because Tasunke was also innocent, so votes for Tasunke weren't any better than votes for Rowain; prior to this we had Zak and Bigger sitting on Tasunke for a while when the 3 wagons were even, so it doesn't look like scum had a strong preference for whom was lynched, this was 2h prior to lynch:

Rowain - 5 - uberfish, novice, pindicator, Tasunke, Selrahc
Selrahc - 4 - Serdoa, Rowain, Ryan, Lewwyn
Tasunke - 4 - MJW, Bigger, zakalwe, Mattimeo
Serdoa - 1 - Qgqqqqq
novice - 1 - Azza
uberfish - 1 - Merovech
zakalwe - 1 - waterbat

I mean at this point in time it looks like the scum were just avoiding the Rowain/Selrahc wagons (even though Rowain was being pushed by the town) because they didn't want to push Selrahc ahead, but neither did they particularly want to be accused of saving Selrahc.

So, Q+bigger+zak moving to rowain as a scum group seems (putting their ENTIRE team on rowain) seems not that likely to me


so overall I think d1 makes Q and MJW less likely to be scum but can't conclude more than that.


I may or may not be around at lynch time, if anyone needs to ask me questions it's best to do so now

[waterbat]

so my intial reaction was: oh, ill just go back to pindicator's post where he was asking about jailer/fool card interaction.

except... he doesn't:

Why does this novice thing still have legs?

He said he was going to pass the item tonight -- which is very pro-town thing to do, unless I'm missing something. By passing the item he is leaving himself open to a Ouija scan.

Now, the alternative is that he's scum and this is a ruse. In that case a fellow scum must have the Fool Card (otherwise we would have heard from someone else who really does have the fool card by now), but by saying to pass it along who is he going to pass it to? If it get passed to a villager then we can scan novice truly and reveal if he is scum or village. The only safe move is that another scum holds the card and then passes it to novice after novice said he's passed it along. But novice then has to have someone to pass the card to. This requires a teammate to reveal himself to go along with the scam.

The solution is that we can keep forcing the movement of the Fool Card (or lynch the person who refuses to move it). Either the wolves keep revealing more of their members in an attempt to keep the ruse going, or they get tripped up.

I say it's better to let this novice thing play out. If he is scum then he'll trip up on his own, and if they want to play a high-risk game then we may get a whole lot of wolves caught in it together.

Well, I hope the wolves don't have the lock pick now but well, here goes. I have a good item, and I plan on passing it tonight (partially bc I have to reveal).

It's not day 1 without a Tasunke reveal!


I want to hear more from Rowain, especially in response to a lot of this novice talk that has gone on.

I dont recall even making that post - but i guess i assumed they had it. similar to how i assumed we had cloak (see my last few posts on that subject)

[waterbat]

oh actually re-reading after i posted triggered the memory of it....

its this part in pindicator's post i found suspicious:
(or lynch the person who refuses to move it)

after reading this i thought pindicator was setting up as a scum with the jailer card. i meant to note it for future case against pindicator. i also wanted to gauge his reaction to me bringing up the hole in his argument - that lynching the person who refused to move it would be playing into the hands of a wolf-aligned jailer.

[uberfish]

I just don't see how waterbat's n2 play makes sense as scum.

Scum waterbat passing the bomb to Serdoa, pretending it was random, and then Selrahc lying about watching Serdoa makes no sense.

And well... why would scum ever *actually* pass the bomb on randomly when they had the opportunity to do so in a controlled fashion without being caught? They'd just end up screwing themselves by not knowing where it was.

Unless it was some really convoluted gambit to get waterbat town cred I suppose.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Uberfish , I have to point out that I switched off when it became clear that Selrahc would not die. Everyone one who was online was a rowain voter at that point. There was a bunch of hidden users but it is clear who was online due to the posts.

My vote stays on you for 2 reasons. 1. If the real wolf is not you he can kill you indirectly by not kill lewwyn. 2. Although everyone else who can be wolf is a terrible lurker you have standards to live up to.

Now, I just have to deal with Qgqqqqq post.

If you mean D1 then, (you are getting them very confused - I only attacked ryan late D2) I voted for Rowain because I saw the case on him, and agreed with it, while I didn't see any real cse on Selrahc.
Your point doesn't stand if you meant day 1, I didn't vote Selrahc at all (?) D1, certainly not waiting until he was in the clear.
Your other points: 1) I made maybe 5-10 posts about Ryan (none of which D1) discussing a LOT of stuff,
2) I wasn't policy lynching then (the only reason one would automatically lynch a lurker D1), there was a genuine case on Rowain due to his "fool card die" arguments,
3) I didn't make it out as a big deal! Have you even read D1? I discussed it with others, and voted for Rowain due to his play around it, but "I" didn't keep bringing it up,
4) Serdoa even mentioned he switches a lot at deadline - any of you, he or Ryan could have lynched Selrahc then (IIRC)
5) A turn of phrase. My point revolved around that a scum needs to setup a mislynch/vig-shoot train for after we lynch azza/uberfish - somehting you appear to be doing.
Azza please don't raise the "useless" post.
I still don't see a case there, and there are no similarities that I can see.

Actions speak lounder than words. And your only actions have been saving Selrahc as much as possible when you could. Or voting him when it does'nt really matter and suits you. The case against Rowain was very weak and probably took all the wolfs voting against him to lose. You and uberfish are the only non-confrimed, non-dead player who voted Rowain on day 1.

1. I think your memory fails you here. I remember scrolling past endless pages of you verus Ryan. And I trust myself over some random lurker.
1a. I was talking about day 2. Were you did vote for Selrac.
2. Serdoa already attacked this point for me.
3. Talking about the fool card would be a legit way to keep you're post count up.
4. Lol, we did not know that Selrahc was a wolf. It would be extremely dangerous to switch off to selrahc because people really hate that. I almost got lyched in a game for switching off at the last second when somone ninja-voted. Only Serdoa could switch to azza to lych him. Serdoa did not attack him all day long so if you are a wolf reading the thread you would know or not care about Serdoa switching off Mero-something.
5. Your number 3 after Uberfish and azza. So if I'm right the case against you is flimsy because you are not a wolf but a useless lurker. I'm just saying if I'm wrong I would lych you over waterbat and mattimeo. You are not semi-confrimed at all. Your vote record does not help you, there is no meta-game night actions to help you and your posts are not good enough to put you even close to semi-confrimed. Set up a mislych train? Well you are doing that much worse than me. Not even brothering to kill off uberfish and azza before me.

[Serdoa]

oh actually re-reading after i posted triggered the memory of it....

its this part in pindicator's post i found suspicious:
(or lynch the person who refuses to move it)

after reading this i thought pindicator was setting up as a scum with the jailer card. i meant to note it for future case against pindicator. i also wanted to gauge his reaction to me bringing up the hole in his argument - that lynching the person who refused to move it would be playing into the hands of a wolf-aligned jailer.

Waterbat, that makes no sense. You wanted to gauge his reaction by bringing up the hole in his argument? Why would you not ASK him about this hole but instead write "this might force the scum to use the jailer card depending on the timing of the reveal". You don't assume they have the jailer and ask what to do in this case, you are certain they have him.

And regarding the part you posted about you assumed that the cloak is village - please point to your post. The only thing I found quickly skimming your last posts was

"Selrahc - please don't take this lynch lying down if you are village. Help us out here. "

Yeah. You really got worried that Selrahc would die. Whole D3 you asked him to do something. Whole D3 you tried to rally others to vote for someone else. Even at the end, when I had stated that I knew for a fact that he was lieing (wrongly so, but I didn't know that) you still kept your vote on Azza. You know who else kept it there: Selrahc. You know who did not vote Selrahc? Lewwyn and pindi. Both voted for zakalwe, another wolf.

Yeah, I really can't see why anyone would vote for you.

@uberfish: your post is somehow getting all facts mixed up, you realise that yes? He passed the bomb to novice - and no, I don't know why. Thats the reason why I actually thought he is village - but his whole play since he told everyone that I have the can is scummy imo. And the passage I mentioned above is it as well.

[Mattimeo]

It does knock you back down to merely "quite likely to be town" from "pretty much garunteed to be town," if that's relevant. Don't know that it is, though.

Who do we have left?
Serdoa - bulletproof tanked a scum shot; town
Lewwyn - uncontested claim of second vig kill; town
(related: have we had someone out an actual claim on the first vig kill yet? I can't recall)

waterbat:
- bomb seems very town
- general interaction with items not so much. Especially the complaining about miller after the seer was lost, indicating the location of the bomb.
- final voting record interesting. Irrelevantly on (scum) zakalwe day 1, irrelevantly on Azza both day 2 and 3 - notably, on day 3 being the only person not being lynched that day who was not on someone we already know to be scum.
Not entirely sure what to make of the voting record, to be honest. Distancing day 1, keeping a low profile the other two? Or just going after who he saw as the most scummy, regardless of the rest of the game?

Azza:
- lockpicks seem slightly scum
- use of lockpicks consistent with both good town play and good scum play
- good voting record - on Selrahc both day 2 and 3. Could just be scum getting annoyed at lurker team-mate though.

MJW:
- box of random leans *very* slightly town
- use of day-vig seems fairly town, but I can see scum arguments for it too.
- another double-Selrahc hitter
- if zak's "three Ms" was meant to involve distancing as well as framing, he's the only candidate left for that.
- I fail at reading randomness even more than I fail reading in general

Qgqqqqq:
- parchment leans slightly town
- use of parchment also leans slightly town, though that's based on even less than these other slight leans I'm pulling from the air
- yet another Selrahc double voter
- ????

uberfish:
- crowbar leans slightly scum
- open claim of it gives less town lean than usual due to Lewwyn beating him to it.
- scum?
- scum

Overall rankings etc:
uberfish > Azza > MJW > waterbat > Qgqqqqq

Apologies for trailing off in quality towards the end, $250 on concert + merch + alcohol (and it was *so* worth it) does not particular engender me towards werewolf after getting home on the last tram.
Will make sure to be around and sober for lynch so I can fix any major fuck-ups. I'm sure I made several.

Also probably tonnes of cross-posting but I cbf.

[waterbat]

as lead vote getter, he had passed away the day with 0 posts. i figured it was another case of a villager not defending himself and doing the village a disservice.

[uberfish]

Uberfish , I have to point out that I switched off when it became clear that Selrahc would not die. Everyone one who was online was a rowain voter at that point. There was a bunch of hidden users but it is clear who was online due to the posts.

But you can't be sure that no one would switch.

My vote stays on you for 2 reasons. 1. If the real wolf is not you he can kill you indirectly by not kill lewwyn. 2. Although everyone else who can be wolf is a terrible lurker you have standards to live up to.

Ok, this is dumb.

1) Since when does Lewwyn automatically get what he wants? Also, you have been talking about a vigilante plan which assumes that Lewwyn will be alive to pass the gun on so why is this even a problem

2) I don't know what you expect from me... No one is accurate all the time. Go look at my voting record in the last Brick game. Or novice's for that matter.

[waterbat]

Mattimeo:

- general interaction with items not so much. Especially the complaining about miller after the seer was lost, indicating the location of the bomb.

just because Serdoa passed me the fool card didnt mean that he HAD to have the bomb. as far as i knew, he could have just decided to pass it. he could have been passed the gun for all i knew.