WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[uberfish]

LOL at that last post Azza. I'm only alive because Serdoa told you to kill MJW and not me. Unfortunately for you, I have a lot more evidence that you are scum and your interactions with Selrahc and Zakalwe are fake than you probably realized.


@Serdoa

In addition to what I posted last night (which should be enough to lynch Azza tbh) look again at what Zakalwe posts about Azza since that was your argument for Azza possibly being innocent a day or so back. There's simply no evidence that he is actually trying to get Azza lynched. He asks Azza questions, sure, but they're pretty soft questions such as:

Wait, maybe Azza was jailed? How do you know that isn't the case, Azza? Would Bigger be able to jail someone before dying?

Zak did post this on day 1:

For now, I'll go with Rowain, since Tasunke claims an item.

@MJW. If we're going with a policy lynch instead of actively aiming for scum, I'd rather lynch Azza or Waterbat than Novice.

Will try to catch up now, only skimmed.

But this doesn't mean much since neither Azza nor Waterbat has anyone actually policy voting them, the Novice policy lynch was clearly not happening by the time he posted this, and neither does he ever revisit this idea.

But really Zak spends as much time defending azza as attacking him, here for example he defends azza against you:

Serdoa Wrote: I hate to, but I have to agree with Selrahc here. If you have an item, I can't believe that as villager you would not think about how to use it best for the village. Thats why I made my night-post voting for Azza, exactly because he did not come up with any compelling reasoning that was intended to help the village. Just his "I didn't trust Tasunke to use it effectively". Thats all?

I explained all that last night, and actually zak, if you don't believe in that reasoning, why didn't you question me about it today? I get the feeling I simply get ignored when I am on certain targets.


It's not the same thing. I did agree with you about Azza giving a poor explanation for his motives. But the way I read it, Selrahc wants Azza to be proposing additional ways to exploit the lock picks, beyond what's already transpired. I have no idea what he is getting at, really, but I see no reason to expect Azza to spam us with speculation along those lines. It's the kind of theorizing that Selrahc loves to do, but I think it's pretty silly to call Azza scum for not doing that.

Add in the fact that after the last 3 flips, we now know that Zakalwe was pushing for the lynch of 2 town lurkers on day 2 (Matt, Mero) yet treating Azza softly when he'd done nothing other than the lockpick claim. That after dropping Azza's name as a policy lynch candidate on day 1. This is strong evidence that Azza is, in fact, scum with Zakalwe and the namedrop was just distancing.

The conclusion is clear. Azza is scum. He's relying on his bussing/distancing with his dead partners to "clear" him. And that he's used his item in a "pro-town" way, when in fact his Thief play was also optimal for scum because they got Tasunke shot for lying and himself in control of the gun. Meanwhile he has been lurking to make sure he doesn't drop any more scum tells.

I will, obviously, not be moving my vote. Brick, you can treat it as locked in if Serdoa decides he wants to end the day early.

[Azza]

LOL at that last post Azza. I'm only alive because Serdoa told you to kill MJW and not me. Unfortunately for you, I have a lot more evidence that you are scum and your interactions with Selrahc and Zakalwe are fake than you probably realized.

Whether you believe me to be scum or not, I can 100% state that I had no idea Serdoa wanted me to shoot MJW last night. I have barely been online the past few days. Unless you think I've been deliberately avoiding posting on RB at all for the past 3 days?

The conclusion is clear. Azza is scum. He's relying on his bussing/distancing with his dead partners to "clear" him. And that he's used his item in a "pro-town" way, when in fact his Thief play was also optimal for scum because they got Tasunke shot for lying and himself in control of the gun. Meanwhile he has been lurking to make sure he doesn't drop any more scum tells.

Ok, so in your opinion Selrahc and Zakalwe have interacted with me in a way that makes me look scummy. But what have I done in relation to them that makes me look scummy? It's not like I haven't posted at all, I've posted over 50 times in this thread. If I'm scum, surely there's something that I've done that makes me look scummy? The lack of scumtells from my own posts suggests that I'm being framed, rather than scum.

And as I've said above, I'm not lurking, I've barely been on RB the past few days.


@Serdoa,
I'm a villager because that's the role that was given to me at the start of the game.

But more useful, I think my play has left me in a position that the scum think I'm an easy mislynch. My posts are twisted to look scummy, I'm not the most active player so I cop a lot of flak for lurking, and in this game in particular I haven't played all that well. I attacked Tasunke's lie, yet he turned out innocent. I attacked Ryan because I thought I saw a scumslip, but had no support and he ended up killing himself as an innocent anyway (that was particularly bad from me). I disappeared off the face of the earth midway through day 4, contributing nothing and eventually rushing to use my vig gun late night 4 and having no justification for it. Surely if I'm scum, I take much more care to remain a contributor and pay attention to the situation at hand, and don't make aggressive attacks on innocents to draw attention to myself.

[uberfish]

Yeah, so azza's defence is apparently "I wasn't around, and I would have been around if I was scum." LOL. Never mind that he's using exactly the same strategy as last time he was scum. Relying on distancing/bussing and attempting to use his role to to "clear" himself. While lurking and letting town attack each other.

As for scummy Azza posts? I've covered them before, but just to refresh everyone's memory:

#548 I pointed this one out last night. Attacks Pind and Mero for doing a thing he's done before when he was village: posting after reveal. Call a town read on the guy who's about to be nightkilled to make himself look good.

#801 Where Azza's "nothing to steal" message claim indicates that either Azza knows he can't be jailed by Bigger, or Brick does.

#1363 and the rest of that attack on Ryan. Covered yesterday in day 3 play

#1579 Artificial and out of place.

#1604 "it's not a scum tell because I was drunk" need I say more. indicates that he's feeling bad about that post

That's a lot of scum tells for someone who doesn't post much and makes a lot of posts that are neutral and can't be read (see day 1.)


Oh yeah, item distribution points against azza too.

watcher + itemseer is redundant (2 ways to detect items)
watcher + thief is complementary (1 way to detect items and 1 to steal)

[Serdoa]

Yeah, well, that last point makes not much sense for me uberfish. Watcher is just telling you who visited, not what item that person has. Thief without knowing what he steals doesn't seem that helpful for scum. Item Seer to direct whom to kill does. But honestly, I am still scratching my head why watcher was part of the scum team.

Anyhow, I don't think I will change my decision anyhow. BRick, Azza, are you fine with ending this day already today?

[BRickAstley]

EDIT Double Post.

[BRickAstley]

Anyhow, I don't think I will change my decision anyhow. BRick, Azza, are you fine with ending this day already today?

If everyone explicitly states they want the day ended early, then I will.

[Azza]

Yeah, so azza's defence is apparently "I wasn't around, and I would have been around if I was scum." LOL. Never mind that he's using exactly the same strategy as last time he was scum. Relying on distancing/bussing and attempting to use his role to to "clear" himself. While lurking and letting town attack each other.

As for scummy Azza posts? I've covered them before, but just to refresh everyone's memory:

#548 I pointed this one out last night. Attacks Pind and Mero for doing a thing he's done before when he was village: posting after reveal. Call a town read on the guy who's about to be nightkilled to make himself look good.

I make those sort of posts every game. It'd be more of a tell if I wasn't questioning the various happenings surrounding the vote.

#801 Where Azza's "nothing to steal" message claim indicates that either Azza knows he can't be jailed by Bigger, or Brick does.

How am I scummy for Brick's wording? This is a particularly bizarre bit of reasoning to me.

#1363 and the rest of that attack on Ryan. Covered yesterday in day 3 play

Yes, we've established that I'm bad at convincing people to my point of view without a smoking gun ala Tasunke's lie. I'm not persuasive, I get it.

#1579 Artificial and out of place.

#1604 "it's not a scum tell because I was drunk" need I say more. indicates that he's feeling bad about that post

So explaining why I made such an out of character post is apparently a scumtell now? That's news to me.

That's a lot of scum tells for someone who doesn't post much and makes a lot of posts that are neutral and can't be read (see day 1.)

It's a real stretch to call most of those scum tells. I acknowledge the Ryan attack looks scummy, hindsight shows that attack was awful. I admit I royally fucked that up, not only the fact that he was innocent, but the fact that the attack was just all round unconvincing. But I don't see how anything else there can be even remotely considered scummy.

Oh yeah, item distribution points against azza too.

watcher + itemseer is redundant (2 ways to detect items)
watcher + thief is complementary (1 way to detect items and 1 to steal)

Watcher and Item Seer are two completely different purposes, which both happen to compliment the thief.

[Azza]

Anyhow, I don't think I will change my decision anyhow. BRick, Azza, are you fine with ending this day already today?

If everyone explicitly states they want the day ended early, then I will.

I'm fine with that.

[Serdoa]

Ok, so

Azza

Why? Because I've read through all posts and I find several posts by uberfish that indicate he did try to do the best for the village, even though he (as we all) failed sometimes. He made a post about the players left at Day 4 and kept in line with it. He tried to stop the vig-shot on zak, but for good reasons. Inherently he seems to be playing similar to me, trying to be certain about others, use the roles (items) as much in villages favor as possible and also to be a little "proud" of himself. All that is still not enough to be certain about his alignment, but if he faked all that as wolf, than hats off, well played uberfish.

On the other hand, we have Azza. I understand that sometimes stuff comes in the way, making you unavailable. That is understandable and ok. But it still prevents everyone else from reading you. If this is a mislynch, I am sorry Azza, but I feel there is really no way to read you with several days of next to no posts.

And I'm fine with ending the game now as well.

[uberfish]

Yeah, well, that last point makes not much sense for me uberfish. Watcher is just telling you who visited, not what item that person has. Thief without knowing what he steals doesn't seem that helpful for scum. Item Seer to direct whom to kill does. But honestly, I am still scratching my head why watcher was part of the scum team.

The watcher can see who visited a player, IE they used an item on them or gave them an item. They can probably make a decent guess at what the item was depending on whether the watched player was considered suspicious by the town

And yeah, "I was drunk" is a crap excuse Azza. If you were online while drunk, then you've been following the game rather more closely than you'd like us to think. (Or had to be online to submit a night kill.)

And the ryan thing has nothing to do with you not being persuasive and everything to do with what it says about your relationship with Selrahc. IE: You know he's scum. Which is why you're trying to frame Ryan for "saving" him even before he flips.