Racial comparison (warning: long)

[Tiltowait]

I think there is a fundamental problem with the thinking here. There was no balance intended in Master of Magic. Where did this idea come from?

You're supposed to take the Gnolls or the Klackons for a challenge. They're hard, they have crap buildings and inferior troops, and yet with a good player they can still win. That's the point, that's why they're included in the game.

[Anthony]

I think there is a fundamental problem with the thinking here. There was no balance intended in Master of Magic. Where did this idea come from?

You're supposed to take the Gnolls or the Klackons for a challenge. They're hard, they have crap buildings and inferior troops, and yet with a good player they can still win. That's the point, that's why they're included in the game.

When a game has a 'difficulty' setting, the implication is that it's the method you use to increase or decrease your challenge, and that other decisions are supposed to be roughly neutral.

[Asfex]

When a game has a 'difficulty' setting, the implication is that it's the method you use to increase or decrease your challenge, and that other decisions are supposed to be roughly neutral.

I agree with you. I do not like think" hehe: sharee choses gnoll! its a weak wizard".
There is Aureus mod. I'd like to hear your comment on its races, Anthony.
Personaly, i like the Aureus races build. I play it with modded spells, so i can not compare it well.

[Tiltowait]

When a game has a 'difficulty' setting, the implication is that it's the method you use to increase or decrease your challenge, and that other decisions are supposed to be roughly neutral.

Nope! That's modern thinking from the tablet computing era. MoM was made in 1994, and has much more in common with board games. In fact, MoM is just a giant board game where the computer keeps track of all the fiddly bits. In games like Cosmic Encounter or Talisman the player factions are unequal and make no bones about it. 'Difficulty' alters the game's parameters as described in the manual. You know, that thing which people used to read? MoM's difficulty roughly mirrors Civilization's.

The computer wizards don't pick gnolls in the real MoM. That's just something that someone added in a patch, to add more variety to the game. Otherwise the computers would only pick the five strongest races. The difficulty of races is not something that the developers were unaware of.

[Asfex]

If you prefer the fantasy element of the strategy game -then what sence to make "balance" at all?
Of couse, you have a good point, but this is slightly contradict with the "strategy" idea.

[Anthony]

Nope! That's modern thinking from the tablet computing era. MoM was made in 1994, and has much more in common with board games.

Board games are almost always supposed to be balanced, though many of them fail. Single-player computer games rarely worry too much about some modes of play being more difficult than others, but it's usually not a deliberate decision.

[Tiltowait]

Nope! That's modern thinking from the tablet computing era. MoM was made in 1994, and has much more in common with board games.

Board games are almost always supposed to be balanced, though many of them fail.

There are plenty of board games out there with unbalanced starting factions. The faction you pick determines your strategy for the game. Some factions are more challenging than others, intentionally, so that experienced players can have a challenge. What are the Klackons even doing in MoM if not to provide a difficult race?

[Anthony]

There are plenty of board games out there with unbalanced starting factions. The faction you pick determines your strategy for the game. Some factions are more challenging than others, intentionally, so that experienced players can have a challenge. What are the Klackons even doing in MoM if not to provide a difficult race?

They're a 'theme' race. Given that klackons in MOO1 are overpowered, I doubt it was any special desire to make a weak race, it's just being kind of bad at game design.

[Anthony]

So, I decided to write a program: if you build every building you possibly can for a race (I'm not sure if I've ever done this in game), what does it cost, and what does it give you. The first column is production cost/upkeep, then food (base/per farmer), mana, research, production per worker, unrest modifier, tax multiplier. This is followed by computing the productivity of a city with all buildings and a garrison of 4 (-2 unrest, -4 food), set to produce trade goods, with a tax rate of either 1.5 or 2.0, and of your native race (+0 unrest, or -2 if Klackon). It is assumed that the city has maxed its trade bonus (+60% at pop 20), which is usually possible if you ever got engineers, and that max farmers have not been reached (not 100% sure how max farmers work).

Barbarian: 3660/45, 7x2f, 9m, 5r, x2p, -3u, x1.5g
Farmer: 2f, 1p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 4p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 9f/10w/1r, 48p, 38 net gold, 9+5 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 9f/7w/4r, 36p, 40 net gold, 9+5 mana
Beastmen: 7310/73, 7x3f, 10m, 18r, x2p, -7u, x2.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 2g, 0.5m. Worker: 5p, 2g, 0.5m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 43 net gold, 20+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 69 net gold, 20+18 mana
Dark Elf: 7910/82, 7x3f, 6m, 18r, x2p, -6u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 3g, 1m. Worker: 5p, 3g, 1m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 64 net gold, 26+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/13w/1r, 72p, 90 net gold, 26+18 mana
Draconian: 7510/75, 7x3f, 10m, 18r, x2p, -7u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1p, 3g, 0.5m. Worker: 4p, 3g, 0.5m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 62p, 64 net gold, 20+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 62p, 100 net gold, 20+18 mana
Dwarven: 2580/34, 7x2f, 6m, 5r, x2p, -2u, x3.0g
Farmer: 2f, 1p, 3g, 0m. Worker: 6p, 3g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 9f/9w/2r, 62p, 110 net gold, 6+5 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 9f/6w/5r, 44p, 114 net gold, 6+5 mana
Gnoll: 2140/29, 7x2f, 3m, 2r, x2p, -2u, x1.5g
Farmer: 2f, 1p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 4p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 9f/9w/2r, 44p, 49 net gold, 3+2 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 9f/6w/5r, 32p, 50 net gold, 3+2 mana
Halfling: 3430/37, 7x3f, 13m, 5r, x2p, -4u, x1.5g
Farmer: 3f, 1p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 4p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 62p, 57 net gold, 13+5 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/11w/3r, 50p, 59 net gold, 13+5 mana
High Elf: 7010/75, 7x3f, 3m, 18r, x2p, -3u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 3g, 0.5m. Worker: 5p, 3g, 0.5m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/13w/1r, 72p, 63 net gold, 13+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/10w/4r, 57p, 68 net gold, 13+18 mana
High Men: 8510/84, 7x3f, 10m, 18r, x2p, -7u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 3g, 0m. Worker: 5p, 3g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 62 net gold, 10+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 98 net gold, 10+18 mana
Klackon: 2090/29, 7x2f, 1m, 2r, x2p, -3u, x1.5g
Farmer: 2f, 1p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 6p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 9f/10w/1r, 68p, 64 net gold, 1+2 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 9f/7w/4r, 50p, 63 net gold, 1+2 mana
Lizardman: 1590/23, 5x2f, 3m, 2r, x1p, -2u, x1.5g
Farmer: 2f, 0.5p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 2p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 10f/8w/2r, 21p, 43 net gold, 3+2 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 10f/5w/5r, 15p, 47 net gold, 3+2 mana
Nomad: 7710/81, 7x3f, 13m, 10r, x2p, -7u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 3g, 0m. Worker: 5p, 3g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 65 net gold, 13+10 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 101 net gold, 13+10 mana
Orc: 9110/90, 7x3f, 10m, 18r, x2p, -7u, x3.0g
Farmer: 3f, 1.25p, 3g, 0m. Worker: 5p, 3g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 56 net gold, 10+18 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 77p, 92 net gold, 10+18 mana
Troll: 3490/40, 7x3f, 10m, 2r, x2p, -5u, x1.5g
Farmer: 3f, 0.75p, 1.5g, 0m. Worker: 3p, 1.5g, 0m
Pop 20 trade city (tax 1.5, g4): 6f/14w/0r, 46p, 46 net gold, 10+2 mana
Pop 20 trade city (tax 2.0, g4): 6f/12w/2r, 40p, 55 net gold, 10+2 mana

[Tyrannical]

Not that I play Klakons and Lizardmen, they do have significant early game advantages when it comes to cheap troops and early game play.

Lizardmen on a small island map. With waterwalking for everyone and islands, you can spread out very quickly early on and you have very little chance of being attacked. The AI needs time and a reason to assemble boats full of troops to assault you. And those boats are very vulnerable to your troops.

Klackons on a huge map. Even with a small population increase hit, extra productive and pacified populace means getting granary - farmer's market a lot quicker. That leads to sustained settler and new city production. You try and over run the enemy through city and numerical troop advantage before they can build the high tech troops.

Of course these reasons are moot against the AI on a high difficulty level because it can build very quickly to the high level units. If the AI were stuck using low level cavalry, spearmen, and swordsmen like the player is, stag beetles and dragon turtles might seem more scary.