The natural borders are how far each side can manage to push them. Which is why I think we need to start pushing.
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Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves
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Think that was a good message from scooter. I don't see much point in trying to hide the location of Brick By Brick; they'll know that there's a city there in a couple more turns. Better to be honest and put things on the table upfront. The offer of intercontinental trade routes should be pretty tempting to them. I'm curious now to see how they respond. Still going to hold that axe on their border for the moment until we hear something more firm about an NAP.
(January 26th, 2013, 13:19)kjn Wrote: The natural borders are how far each side can manage to push them. This is possibly the best thing anyone has posted about Civ4 ever. 
January 26th, 2013, 15:24
(This post was last modified: January 26th, 2013, 15:25 by fluffyflyingpig.)
 (January 26th, 2013, 10:10)scooter Wrote: WPC confirms NAP! Okay now that we responded to CivPlayers, let's talk. What's the timeline here? When would we be ready for war, without opening ourselves up to a stab from somewhere else?
They are going to have to keep the Germans in check for a while aren't they? They're gonna be disappointed when they realise just how long our NAP is.
If I was giving them honest advice I'd tell them to sign peace and then join us in an attack on t151, but we really want them to keep on fighting. Is there any value to us in a weak but pliant neighbour who will help our bid for victory later, or are we better off just gobbling them up after the Germans? I'm thinking that having an ally against CFC in the future might be profitable, and that they've gone above the call of duty in keeping the turns rolling... In any case I'd answer telling them the truth about our NAP, that we wish we hadn't signed such a long one and that we'll do our best to have a decent military by the time our NAP ends and will be happy to coordinate things with them then, but that a lot can happen in 50 turns.
Completed: RB Demogame - Gillette, PBEM46, Pitboss 13, Pitboss 18, Pitboss 30, Pitboss 31, Pitboss 38, Pitboss 42, Pitboss 46, Pitboss 52 (Pindicator's game), Pitboss 57
In progress: Rimworld  Having a few small weak neighbours can be good at times. Getting a few high-value trade routes and having another relay for diplo messages can both be worthwhile. And having a secure front when we have two strong two neighbours on each side is a good thing. As such, I think we should give them long-term advice that is good for them, anyway. They're backwards right now, and it will only get worse no matter what they do. Having a weak neighbour that thinks well of us because we give them good advice for them, is better than to have an even weaker neighbour that has started to resent us since we treat them as our pet attack dog.
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(January 26th, 2013, 14:59)Sullla Wrote: Think that was a good message from scooter. I don't see much point in trying to hide the location of Brick By Brick; they'll know that there's a city there in a couple more turns. Better to be honest and put things on the table upfront. Yep, really well put in the message Scooter, makes it sound like a fait accompli.
Completed: RB Demogame - Gillette, PBEM46, Pitboss 13, Pitboss 18, Pitboss 30, Pitboss 31, Pitboss 38, Pitboss 42, Pitboss 46, Pitboss 52 (Pindicator's game), Pitboss 57
In progress: Rimworld
If tech trading were enabled, having a few friendly client state backwards civ neighbors would be fine. But, we need their tile yields to convert into economy. Expansion is the key. When we run out of free land, we have to take over their land. Darwinian, but necessary. Metagame considerations included, INCA MUST DIE. If we have a willing partner, so much the better. But unless WPC is able to pull their weight in a continued military campaign against another adversary, us propping them up and partitioning the Incan lands just sets us back from where we ultimately want to be. I think that if we are able to consume and digest Inca, with or without help, we need to cast our eyes on the next softest target.
Realistically, I think it is more likely that WPC ends up the softest target, so goodwill from the clock or not, the most rational outcome is to gobble them up while they're weak, then prey on the Incan carcass. I want to hear a lot more from others on this interesting proposal, but I'm inclined to keep them mired in war as long as possible, sapping strength from both sides, and have us jump in decisively, blitzkrieg style with overwhelming numbers, so we don't get bogged down. I'm grateful that our NAP prevents us actively participating for a long, long time for this reason.
Geography, diplomacy, and meta-gaming all favours a German first strategy. WPC is to our northeast, the Germans to our north.
From a geography standpoint, we have a broad isthmus between ourselves and WPC, that might be vulnerable to expansion from CFC or the Germans. The distance from Forbidden Fruit to the first known WPC city is 10 tiles, while the distance from Tree Huggers to Worms is 10 tiles From a diplomacy standpoint, the Germans have no friends in the area due to their approach to the clock, while WPC has shown plenty of consideration to all the other teams. If we and WPC went after the Germans, then I think the latter team would be hard-pressed to get assistance from other teams. WPC would have a much easier time. Meta-gaming-wise, knocking out the Germans hopefully would make for faster turns.
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