EitB 0010 Wishlist/Progress

[Qgqqqqq]

Sorry it was in response to gekko saying that it was about elves not the religion.
As you may have noticed (from werewolf) I can be very unclear when posting on phone.
Sorry

[gekko64]

satyrs are not OP, it's just that hidden paths currently has tons of goodies packed tight together. I agree that GoN + Kythra would be fine, same as mind stapling and arete. moving satyrs a bit later in the recon tree also allows a bit more time to get moar lvl 4 fawns

[Qgqqqqq]

But it makes it less likely they will be invested in at all!
A crying shame for an awesome unit.
They're a goody you have to work for!
Look at it like sorcery - you get an awesome unit that. needs a bit of setup, a core economic feature (metamagic) and a hero Gibbon.

[gekko64]

isn't sorcery quite a bit more expensive than hidden paths? also I'd consider the population boom from guardians of nature a lot more economically powerful than metamagic access.

[Tasunke]

Anyways. Averax - Agg/Exp ... Volanna- either Rai/Exp or Agg/Cre.

I've got to say, after Hidingkneels comments my preference is for her to be Rai/Exp.

[gekko64]

what about removing halfprice monument from CRE and adding halfprice theatre?

the main selling point of CRE is no need for monuments, so halfprice monuments is of dubious utility. theatres otoh are quite expensive so it would come in handy and help with a quick theatre of dreams and/or cultural win

[Tasunke]

what about removing halfprice monument from CRE and adding halfprice theatre?

the main selling point of CRE is no need for monuments, so halfprice monuments is of dubious utility. theatres otoh are quite expensive so it would come in handy and help with a quick theatre of dreams and/or cultural win

agree

[gtAngel]

Honestly I prefer the old way, and I'll defend it.

First, Volanna: Aggressive/Expansive covers an area that the other Svartalfar leaders do not. That combination is geared towards more direct combat and direct building. Both Faeryl and Rivanna have traits that are geared towards indirect combat, and Rivanna's economic bonus does not support building as much as it does sustaining.

Raiders/Expansive: This overlaps raiders with Faeryl, so the only difference in play comes from Arcane vs Expansive. To me this doesn't feel like an interesting decision for players to make. You get the same thing, except you choose whether or not you want heavy magic play. That's it. You get magic or better growth. Compare Rai/Arc and Ind/Sum. Both of them can play very similarly, and utilize their small differences to take advantages. Faeryl gets a faster return on the arcane line and has stronger indirect combat. Rivanna can field more units effectively, and has stronger units (command post + summoner). It's a more involved choice than "magic? (y/n)"

Aggressive/Creative: This is just a really weird combination, that I feel belongs more on Averax with his Barbarian than Volanna. Creative in FFH is a weird trait because the mechanics of FFH are very different than base CivIV in the early game.

In CivIV creative is primarily a tool for building a larger empire against your neighbors, as well as a minor convenience. Culture is fairly easy to come by early on, but it is an investment. So creative civs get two bonuses: they don't need to invest in monuments, and they win border wars. Primarily, this means they can settle aggressively, content that they can instantly start building useful buildings/units and that their investment is safe (no one can steal tiles from them.)

In FFH most of this is switched around. Culture is very hard to come by in early FFH, to the point where it's often easier to just build more cities to claim tiles than it is to get border pops. However, there is almost no ability to settle aggressively. With so many barbarians and animals on the field trying to settle at any noteworthy distance from your established empire is just going to end up getting punished. You will get additional barbarians coming to your empire, and you have to build a ton of extra units because you can't rely on a smaller number running around fogbusting and playing zone control. However, the ability to pop borders means that for most of the early phases of the game you simply have better land for fewer settlers. You can collect the full 20 tiles in just three turns, while other civs must spend ages working on a monument or building another settler, otherwise they only get 9 tiles to work with.

This makes creative really strong under a few circumstances, but weaker in others. Averax is one of the strongest implementations right now. He has the barbarian trait, which allows him to settle more aggressively than any other non-barbarian leader. The aggressive trait means that he can clear out animals from the path more easily, and can defend these expansions from enemy players. Another synergy of the pair for him is that creative is extremely good for dealing with captured cities - you quickly get border pops without having to spend turns building infrastructure or using up a disciple. This is very nice in particular because Sheaim love going AV, and AV disciples cannot create culture.

For Volanna, this combination is much weaker. Elves are slow builders, so having more land available isn't nearly as useful. The Aggressive trait is wonderful on the Svarts, but Volanna would be stuck with one good trait and one very mediocre trait. Considering that elves in generally tend to grab Fellowship of Leaves, the creative trait isn't even that useful when conquering, because it is almost universally better to use a minor culture bomb - you immediately stop revolting and pop borders. Compared to sitting a few turns waiting for borders and production, that is a no-brainer.

Averax: As I said before, Agg/Cre/Bar is actually a very strong combination. It supports a builder->conquerer game style, and fills a niche that other Sheaim leaders lack. Both Tebryn and Os-Gabella focus on the non-mundane sections of the tree, and have no real builder traits. Averax has great traits for production heavy cities and strong mundane unit fighting. Agg/Exp does almost the same thing, but it loses the conquerer focus from the traits.

Overall, I think the trait combinations are fine and dandy how they are right now. At the very least I don't think Volanna should be Agg/Cre, because it simply isn't useful for her to be creative. If you want a creative Svart you probably need a second builder trait for it to be decent, otherwise it's just a waste because Svart's cannot use the extra land, and they outgrow the conquering benefits.

[gekko64]

I'm fine with Volanna, agree that she shouldn't share raiders with Faeryl. only issue, she's stealing the spotlight from the booby winter queen right now

I dislike CRE on Averax, don't think it fits him. I'd like IND for him, for people who enjoyed IND Os-Gabella ( catacomb, ragnarok etc. )

so to recap my wishlist for v10 traits:

PHI/CRE Cassiel
AGG/IND/BAR Averax
PHI/SPI Einion
ORG/SPI Ethne

[Qgqqqqq]

+1000 to everything gtangel said, the traits are fine (at least for those two) and need no adjustment.