D2 content patch 1.13 in the making?!?

[FoxBat]

I think you are mixing up how powerful WW is (or not) with crushing blow - As Dr Douglass commented years ago Bash is the most powerful skill since it can kills Hell Heppy with ~4 hits in a 8 player game. Well yeah, he was loaded with 100% CB. It might as well be any attacks or even normal attack as long as it hits. You are making a case on how powerful CB is, nor WW.

Fast/frequent attacks are superior on CB, bash is far from the best. It'll do the job on bosses, but when you spend 3 or 4 hits to kill a normal mob, they better be fast. Zealots and fury sins are built on the item property, similarly whirlers can spread them out quickly over a large area.

Although I'm not a fan on making characters so item-dependent, that's the road D2 LoD started on and 1.10 magnified a hundred fold. What "balance" means when you have such ridiculous items and properties like crushing blow in your game is hard to figure out, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Doc]

Heh, I wasn't asking for pointers on a whirler. I was stating the WW is broken.



I think you are mixing up how powerful WW is (or not) with crushing blow - As Dr Douglass commented years ago Bash is the most powerful skill since it can kills Hell Heppy with ~4 hits in a 8 player game. Well yeah, he was loaded with 100% CB. It might as well be any attacks or even normal attack as long as it hits. You are making a case on how powerful CB is, nor WW.



Yep. It's broken. But Bill Roper would say its working as intended


KoP

What makes Bash both powerful and useful is the knockback effect, same as smite. Against dangerous foes, you can place them into stunlock, never allowing them to get off a single hit.

Smite and Bash are two exceptionally powerful physical attacks in the right hands. Bash is powerful for other reasons, mainly because of how the buggy extra damage is applied. I forget all the tech details, but remember that this damage is increased in weird ways and bypasses something or other. Physical resistance? I honestly don't remember. The damage is also calculated in a funky way, making bash the barbarians most physically damaging (single) attack. (But I can't remember the specifics. Something about how the damage is applied, the order it is applied, or something, and how bash's odd points of extra damage end up being a lot higher than the skill it self suggests)

Normal attack and crushing blow provides damage, but lacks the safety of bash and smite. Also lacks attack rating, which means you might miss.

Plus, it makes the most awesome sound in the world, and is the perfect attack for a hammer and shield barb.

[KingOfPain]

Fast/frequent attacks are superior on CB, bash is far from the best. It'll do the job on bosses, but when you spend 3 or 4 hits to kill a normal mob, they better be fast. Zealots and fury sins are built on the item property, similarly whirlers can spread them out quickly over a large area.

My main objection wasn't on how low WW damage is, rather, how it misses hitting a whole group of monsters occasionally. WW has the reach, even with a range 1 weapon, on AS pathways, so I can't fault it to my bad pathing. I don't care how slow a weapon is, if it (with 95% CTH) fails to hit anything in a mob with a WW pass, I consider it broken.

I would think it should at least hit something in a mob even with your default 5% CTH.

You are making a case on how powerful CB is, nor WW.

That should have read "You are making a case on how powerful CB is, NOT WW". Bad typo


KoP

[Dr.Disaster]

Half true. Frenzy increases your foot speed. Allowing you to close the distance with WW faster and travel faster through the pack, doing more hits. Frenzy offers damage through increased movement rates. More movement, more attacks, less time spent traveling, more hits on monsters to apply crushing blow.

AYE to movement speed but NAY to changes in attack speed or more attacks. No matter how fast you move/whirl, the number and speed of WW's attacks remain unchanged by off-weapon IAS. Blizzard states this on the Arrest Summit for LoD. Dunno if classic is different.

Let's stay with the 0% IAS Insight partizan and the given number of 12 frames per attack. If you frenzy up, you will whirl faster towards or thru a pack of monsters. But the Insight partizan will not attack faster or more often then once per 12 frames.

[Doc]

AYE to movement speed but NAY to changes in attack speed or more attacks. No matter how fast you move/whirl, the number and speed of WW's attacks remain unchanged by off-weapon IAS. Blizzard states this on the Arrest Summit for LoD. Dunno if classic is different.

Let's stay with the 0% IAS Insight partizan and the given number of 12 frames per attack. If you frenzy up, you will whirl faster towards or thru a pack of monsters. But the Insight partizan will not attack faster or more often then once per 12 frames.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

If it takes you say, 3 seconds during a whirlwind cycle to travel the distance between monster A and monster B, or 1 second while frenzied, in which situation are you doing more damage instead of traveling? More time actually spent landing hits instead of traveling between monsters in a group.

Clearer?

I seem to recall that you get frenzy's damage boost as well.

[KingOfPain]

Let's stay with the 0% IAS Insight partizan and the given number of 12 frames per attack. If you frenzy up, you will whirl faster towards or thru a pack of monsters. But the Insight partizan will not attack faster or more often then once per 12 frames

A slower weapon is not as bad as it looks on paper. Granted that you would want the fastest weapon available just-because (everything being equal), the advantage you gain from a faster weapon is (mostly) situational and depends on you tactics. If you like using the DoD (shameless self-plug- realmsbeyond.net/diablo/yadyada) tactic, your weapon speed matters next to nothing, since your WW (practically) starts and ends at the free hit checks (frame 4 and 8. With Dance of Death, I will take a slower range 6 weapon over a faster range 1 weapon any day.

KoP

[Doc]

A slower weapon is not as bad as it looks on paper. Granted that you would want the fastest weapon available just-because (everything being equal), the advantage you gain from a faster weapon is (mostly) situational and depends on you tactics. If you like using the DoD (shameless self-plug- realmsbeyond.net/diablo/yadyada) tactic, your weapon speed matters next to nothing, since your WW (practically) starts and ends at the free hit checks (frame 4 and 8). With Dance of Death, I will take a slower range 5 weapon over a faster range 1 weapon any day.

KoP

Isn't the Hone Sundan range five? And pretty much the fastest thing a whirler can whirl with? (Other than some duped stuff)

And there are fast range three single handed weapons, like black flails, axes, etc.

[KingOfPain]

Hone Sundan with 3 shaels
-60, range 5

Bonehew with 2 shaels
-70, range 3

Tomb Reaver with 3 shaels
- 110, range 5

ViperFork with 1 shael
-90, range 5

Ribcracker with 1 shael
-70, range 1

BotD on a Giant Tresher (or other Base 0 weapons)
-70, range 6

2 handed weapons breakpoints are
15, 0, -10, -30, -60

((1 handed weapons break points are different - 15, 10, -10, -35))


So all of the above has the same WW speed

Then you have the damage and weapon mods to choose from...

KoP


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[Deceptus]

Bonehew with 2 shaels
-70, range 3

Not that it matters a lot, but I prefer amns to socket in a bonehew.

And my biggest problem with the WW is the fact that it gets so long until you get it, and even longer to make it worth it. Which means everything else gets a "1" as a prereq. Which means that Normal difficulty is so boring with your low damage output. I prefer to skip it with the help of some friends on the Realms.

Or maybe I'm just so dumb I don't know how to play a Barbarian properly.

And I'd wish that they would made the game less dependant on gear. When I started my Barbarian, everyone laughed it off because apparently, without a BotD or something else that requires a lifetime of MF'ing, a Barbarian is useless. Same for many other classes...

[Dr.Disaster]

If it takes you say, 3 seconds during a whirlwind cycle to travel the distance between monster A and monster B, or 1 second while frenzied, in which situation are you doing more damage instead of traveling? More time actually spent landing hits instead of traveling between monsters in a group.

I see your point but you miss mine. Look .. an attack is only done if a WW attack happens according to animation frames passed and you are in range of monsters; depending on the weapon used.

Pro: with Frenzy you can reach a monster faster to get a WW attack in.
Con: Frenzy can make you move so fast that you reach and pass the monster before WW can get an attack out, depending on weapon speed.

Hone Sundan with 3 shaels
-60, range 5

Bonehew with 2 shaels
-70, range 3

Tomb Reaver with 3 shaels
- 110, range 5

ViperFork with 1 shael
-90, range 5

Ribcracker with 1 shael
-70, range 1

BotD on a Giant Tresher (or other Base 0 weapons)
-70, range 6

2 handed weapons breakpoints are
15, 0, -10, -30, -60

((1 handed weapons break points are different - 15, 10, -10, -35))


So all of the above has the same WW speed

Then you have the damage and weapon mods to choose from...

KoP

Yep, that's it. Once you reach -60 with 2-handed weapons it can't get any faster.
Given the numbers on the summit using 2 weapons won't be faster but it get's you a doubled attack count. Of course it comes at the sacrifice of weapon range (max 3 on 1-handed weapons) and damage.

And my biggest problem with the WW is the fact that it gets so long until you get it, and even longer to make it worth it. Which means everything else gets a "1" as a prereq. Which means that Normal difficulty is so boring with your low damage output. I prefer to skip it with the help of some friends on the Realms.

That's prolly the reason why i prefer Singers

Dr. Disaster