[SPOILERS] PB1- Mardoc buys a can of paint for Thoth and Ellimist

[Ellimist]

Scouted a bit, Elli might finish it, or we might pause and leave it for tomorrow. Not sure how much he's comfortable finishing on his own.

Did take the shot on the Mud Golem, won. Figure griffs are a perishable asset, any turn now they'll get fireballs and start shooting them down.

I'd planned to finish it, but some of the troop movements don't make sense to me, such as the Gin Chariot. It seems like it would be a mistake to send it back in the direction it just came from earlier this turn, but I'm not sure where else it's going.

Let's be stingy for a bit with the upgrades and rush buys. We have several very high priority techs we need to get asap. Running 100% gold with the Calabim or Elohim will set us back even further on those.

All the workers were already moved when I logged in, but we may need to queue some additional ones. Some of our cities have citizens working unimproved tiles and a lot of room for improvement, and not just in our newer cities.

[Thoth]

Did take the shot on the Mud Golem, won. Figure griffs are a perishable asset, any turn now they'll get fireballs and start shooting them down.

I wasn't sure so I held off.

I'd planned to finish it, but some of the troop movements don't make sense to me, such as the Gin Chariot. It seems like it would be a mistake to send it back in the direction it just came from earlier this turn, but I'm not sure where else it's going.

The chariots in Gin are right where they are supposed to be. They're our Eastern reaction force. Not much yet, but we're slowly getting there.

Let's be stingy for a bit with the upgrades and rush buys. We have several very high priority techs we need to get asap. Running 100% gold with the Calabim or Elohim will set us back even further on those.

All the workers were already moved when I logged in, but we may need to queue some additional ones.

When the current worker pair in Blue finishes we'll be at 60 workers. That is plenty. Blue needs to shift to Adept production.

I've corrected the tile assignments in KIPA, NBA, Steeler and Lakeport Honey.

Coors should build nothing except Chariots for the rest of the game.

Since we're delaying IW in favour of Feud, the TY in KIPA can wait. So we're building some 2t Stonewardens here first. TY will be timed to complete the turn before IW so we can start pushing out 2t Ogres.

Some of our cities have citizens working unimproved tiles and a lot of room for improvement, and not just in our newer cities.

The Complaints Department can be accessed in game by pressing "F9"

[Mardoc]

Did take the shot on the Mud Golem, won. Figure griffs are a perishable asset, any turn now they'll get fireballs and start shooting them down.

I wasn't sure so I held off.

I'd planned to finish it, but some of the troop movements don't make sense to me, such as the Gin Chariot. It seems like it would be a mistake to send it back in the direction it just came from earlier this turn, but I'm not sure where else it's going.

The chariots in Gin are right where they are supposed to be. They're our Eastern reaction force. Not much yet, but we're slowly getting there.

In general, I think we need to be getting more aggressive. In particular, Team Wizard is leaving their wizards extremely exposed, but I'd like more pressure on the Clowns too. Both teams are starting the summon game, and that won't end well for us. Vamps can do that too, but not as well.

So I think we need to be prepared to take the lower odds battles, as long as the odds are still decent. Obviously not advocating attacking a Djinn head-on. We can still win this by attrition, as long as it's actual hammer-built units that we're killing and not summons.

That said, I know I haven't had much time for the game recently, and it's a lot easier to decree than to make happen. I expect to have a bit more time starting this weekend, hopefully. Unless I'm working tomorrow. Still need to pin my boss down on that question.

I'm torn, on a different question. On the one hand, an eastern reaction/offensive force could give us some nice options, and we have to keep in mind that Summoner puppets have a wide radius of effect. On the other...I really, really want to be sure we have enough forces on hand the first turn we dispel Djinn, to be able to take advantage. If they remain passive, and we have enough Raiders units 4 move or better in Saltus, that turn we can kill Gibbon. Kill Gibbon and two cities and some of their mundane defenders and whatever adepts/PoW are around, and we'll certainly break their morale. Might also break their ability to resist, dunno.

Given that they're stacking Djinns now instead of backing him off further, they may have overlooked Dispel Illusion. But we'd only have one turn of surprise.

Let's be stingy for a bit with the upgrades and rush buys. We have several very high priority techs we need to get asap. Running 100% gold with the Calabim or Elohim will set us back even further on those.

Agreed . I think. There are a few things that might pay for themselves pretty quickly: a fourth island city is probably around 30 gpt, rushing the galley costs ~60 gold, that pays for itself in 2 turns, doesn't it?

And...I'll feel really bad if we don't have a striking force capable of killing Gibbon the turn we dispel the Djinns. Although that can mostly be Moroi, right? Could easily add another 20 Moroi to Saltus by the time we get a Vicar there.

All the workers were already moved when I logged in, but we may need to queue some additional ones.

When the current worker pair in Blue finishes we'll be at 60 workers. That is plenty. Blue needs to shift to Adept production.

Some of our cities have citizens working unimproved tiles and a lot of room for improvement, and not just in our newer cities.

The Complaints Department can be accessed in game by pressing "F9"

I'm afraid I agree with Thoth here. We're not going to be able to add new cities, for the most part, that can use worker labor in any event. We can still settle some islands, can still settle maybe 3-4 cities toward the golems after we get a decent zone defense/offense force set up, but for the most part all we have is what we've got. Oh, and I suppose we might be able to take some cities, but those are generally already full of improvements, no? . And..we're not far off useful drafting and Feasting, either. Radiant Guards are handy on their own, and also handy as a 60 hammer source for Ratha or Vampire upgrades. Ogres...don't need to tell you how they can be useful, do I?

I have to believe that 60 workers will be able to catch up to our existing cities' needs.

The one thing I want to add to the to-do list, if possible, is better road network in the north toward the golems, so we can open a second front potentially. And therefore likely a round of crumple-zone cities to guard the roads and house the garrisons. Is that feasible anytime soon, Thoth?

Coors should build nothing except Chariots for the rest of the game.

...unless the situation changes .

Since we're delaying IW in favour of Feud, the TY in KIPA can wait. So we're building some 2t Stonewardens here first. TY will be timed to complete the turn before IW so we can start pushing out 2t Ogres.

Sounds good to me. Didn't realize the swap back to Feud was a given, but I still think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Both techs will be excellent for us and should come ASAP.

And Stonewardens are one of those multiplicative things . More useful the bigger our army is, and we have a pretty big army growing fast. I suppose some healing power won't go amiss either, particularly once we get Regeneration Vamps around.

[Thoth]

In general, I think we need to be getting more aggressive. In particular, Team Wizard is leaving their wizards extremely exposed, but I'd like more pressure on the Clowns too. Both teams are starting the summon game, and that won't end well for us. Vamps can do that too, but not as well.

The only way we can "pressure" st 16 units that heal on defense is to attack where those units are not.

With a couple of roads from combat workers we can assault and burn a border Gnome city with 4 movers striking out of Rum. We'll need a Haste adept, 2 5xp Moroi and ~6 chariots to do it given current defenses. If we can throw a Spectre or two at the walls first so much the better. I haven't worked out the logistics and timing for this yet, but if possible I'd like to do it t120. 122 at the latest.

So I think we need to be prepared to take the lower odds battles, as long as the odds are still decent. Obviously not advocating attacking a Djinn head-on. We can still win this by attrition, as long as it's actual hammer-built units that we're killing and not summons.

See above

I'm torn, on a different question. On the one hand, an eastern reaction/offensive force could give us some nice options, and we have to keep in mind that Summoner puppets have a wide radius of effect. On the other...I really, really want to be sure we have enough forces on hand the first turn we dispel Djinn, to be able to take advantage. If they remain passive, and we have enough Raiders units 4 move or better in Saltus, that turn we can kill Gibbon. Kill Gibbon and two cities and some of their mundane defenders and whatever adepts/PoW are around, and we'll certainly break their morale. Might also break their ability to resist, dunno.

Once we have Rathas/Vicars our first objective will be retaking Saltus (and possibly Napa if we aren't nimble). Gibbon will have Ice 3 t120. Expect Saltus to fall either t120 or 121.

So we need to pull the chariots, cats, Rantine, SoKs and high exp Moroi back to Napa t119. We'll leave the 2xp Moroi, Wolf Riders, Medic and Saltus built/drafted BPs in Saltus to keep them honest and in the meantime start fortifying Moroi in Napa and Eiswine.

Our GP is due Eot 121. So t122 we either trigger GA (with a non-Merchant GP) or bite the bullet and pay the turn of anarchy to get into Empy. We'll spread Empy in Reis on t119. We'll want to start the temple asap, so we postpone the Hunting Lodge for a bit and build a 1t moroi on t118. 119 start temple. Done Eot 120. 121: Buld disciple. 122: pay 85 gold to upgrade to Vicar after the Swap. Start building Vicars in Reis. First built Vicar goes for spread + temple in Zin who can then build some 1t Rathas.

The upgraded Vicar heads to the front to disrupt the summons spam.

And...I'll feel really bad if we don't have a striking force capable of killing Gibbon the turn we dispel the Djinns. Although that can mostly be Moroi, right? Could easily add another 20 Moroi to Saltus by the time we get a Vicar there.

We'll have another dozen or so Moroi on the board by the time we get to Feud (plus another pair of cats). That should be enough to hold them for long enough that we don't lose Eiswine before we get our counter units in play.

So long as we keep the Chariots and cats alive, we should be able to retake the borderlands t123/124.

I have to believe that 60 workers will be able to catch up to our existing cities' needs.

We're completing farms, lms, mines and cottages every turn. Our tile yeilds are growing nicely

The one thing I want to add to the to-do list, if possible, is better road network in the north toward the golems, so we can open a second front potentially. And therefore likely a round of crumple-zone cities to guard the roads and house the garrisons. Is that feasible anytime soon, Thoth?

Coors should build nothing except Chariots for the rest of the game.

...unless the situation changes .[/quote]

It's got a SW and Warrens. Unless the game suddenly changes to "Always Peace" then there is nothing more useful we can do with this city than spam out chariots.

Sounds good to me. Didn't realize the swap back to Feud was a given, but I still think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Both techs will be excellent for us and should come ASAP.

The tech had been changed when a logged in this morning so I figured you guys had voted for Feud first.

Feud, IW or CoS are all excellent choices for our beakers right now. I want all of them ASAP.

And Stonewardens are one of those multiplicative things . More useful the bigger our army is, and we have a pretty big army growing fast. I suppose some healing power won't go amiss either, particularly once we get Regeneration Vamps around.

We finished up a Calabim Stonewarden eot 117 so we can start buffing t118. NBA has 3 queued (2t each) which will let the TY complete within a turn or so of IW and give us another 6 buffers/Medics.

Economic matters to follow.

[Thoth]

Economy:

With the Calabim out of GA, their beakers per turn dropped to 540. They're currently burning 47gpt. We'll be adding 2 more aristofarms and Wheat for the Brewery on t118, so we're looking at producing 560 beakers t118. We should be able to clear 600bpt by t120.

Elohim are up to ~370 bpt and will be adding Silks and a farm or two t118, so ~380 bpt rising to over 400 by t120. Current burn rate is 9 gpt.

Total current cash burn is 56 gpt (and rising...which is good ).

Orcs are making +70 gpt, but will be adding a few tile improvements of their own t118 plus a bit of tile juggling in Sam Adams should get us up to ~80 gpt t118. End of t118 ~6/7 cottages/hamlets improve. End of t119 we'll grow to size 6 in our Pearl Port and work both Pearls.

Enough to (just barely) keep up with our cost increases. So Sam Adams and Lakeport Honey need to be groomed up as very good commerce cities rather than mediocre hammer cities. We'll need that gold to pay for all the units our hammer cities are pumping out.

GP stuff:

Our Reisling GP is due in 4t. We're currently at 25% odds for a GM, but those odds will get better over the next few turns so long as we don't hire any merchants until after the GP pops. This may mean working a citizen for a turn or two on t119/120. Furs are online for +1 happy t119, but the temple won't complete until eot 120 (enabling two priest slots) so we pick up an extra pair of hammers instead of unwanted GM points.

Orcs: Need two GP for their next GA. This may be a very long time.

Elohim: Need to have a look at the timing here. We've got significant GPP pools in our three core Elohim cities, but we want to delay cashing them in until after the next Calabim GP. With current Elohim growth rates, a GA for them circa t124/125 would be very nice (and should generate enough GPs for a second Elohim GA )

[Mardoc]

I don't have any sentimental attachment to Saltus at all...but I question why Gibbon getting snowfall is an instant loss for us? At least until they've gotten two puppets casting it in the same spot, it doesn't seem obvious to me.

It does ~40% damage, base, with a cap of 80. Puppet makes that 30% damage. Saltus has a 20% cultural defense, 25% hill, potentially 25% fortification, that nets us +70% on defense. A Moroi at 3.5/5 defends at 5.95, therefore, before accounting for any promos. They don't have enough hitters to be able to kill units at that strength, especially since damage varies so we'll have some almost full health. Then we can counterattack with whatever's in range and still healthyish - and we'll get a full heal with a city and a disciple or maybe Stonewarden. Sure, letting them have collateral and us without isn't a recipe for an awesome hammer exchange - but we don't need an awesome hammer exchange. Just an almost even one.

Oh, and on top of all that, last I looked they don't have any Mud Golems in the region, so they can't reach us in one turn from their current positions regardless

Granted, once they bring up a second Puppet and hit us again, we'll have to run for it. But I think we have until we actually see Mud Golems and Snowfall Puppets with our Hawks, we don't have to evacuate.

What else...oh. If Snowfall is our main concern, then I go back to agreeing with Feud first. Some Magic resist/Cold resist vamps with regeneration to guard stacks are just the ticket. Might be worth promoting Rantine Magic/Cold Resist, too. 70% resist on a Puppet Snowfall means the unit takes what, 7.5% damage on average? That's not scary at all.

[Thoth]

I don't have any sentimental attachment to Saltus at all...but I question why Gibbon getting snowfall is an instant loss for us? At least until they've gotten two puppets casting it in the same spot, it doesn't seem obvious to me.

It does ~40% damage, base, with a cap of 80. Puppet makes that 30% damage. Saltus has a 20% cultural defense, 25% hill, potentially 25% fortification, that nets us +70% on defense. A Moroi at 3.5/5 defends at 5.95, therefore, before accounting for any promos. They don't have enough hitters to be able to kill units at that strength, especially since damage varies so we'll have some almost full health.

You've got me puzzled with the "puppet makes that 30% damage"?

Even if they do "only" 30%, that's two Snowfalls + 3 Djin to redline the top 3 defenders who didn't take much Blizzard damage plus whatever skellies they can muster over the next few turns. Plus a couple of catapult strikes and fireball hits to soften things up first. So we're looking at defenders around 30-40% health.

We may be able to hold Saltus (5/6 Saltus built BPs, 6-8 moroi, 4 wolf riders and a medic are a lot of bodies to kill) but I don't want to risk high exp units and weak defenders that are expensive to replace (cats and Chariots).

Then we can counterattack with whatever's in range and still healthyish - and we'll get a full heal with a city and a disciple or maybe Stonewarden. Sure, letting them have collateral and us without isn't a recipe for an awesome hammer exchange - but we don't need an awesome hammer exchange. Just an almost even one.

Hammer exchange be dammned, we pwn the MFG demos.

Keeping the Cats, chariots and experienced Moroi alive in Napa gives us counterstike ability so long as we can handle the Djin (which won't happen until t124/125).

We'll have a small window of vulnerablity between Gibbon getting Snowfall and us getting Vicars/Rathas.

Oh, and on top of all that, last I looked they don't have any Mud Golems in the region, so they can't reach us in one turn from their current positions regardless

They won't have a mud golem in position to fix the road until the turn before they plan to attack.

Granted, once they bring up a second Puppet and hit us again, we'll have to run for it. But I think we have until we actually see Mud Golems and Snowfall Puppets with our Hawks, we don't have to evacuate.

So IOW, we pull the Chariots, cats and experienced units back on t119 maybe 120.

What else...oh. If Snowfall is our main concern, then I go back to agreeing with Feud first. Some Magic resist/Cold resist vamps with regeneration to guard stacks are just the ticket. Might be worth promoting Rantine Magic/Cold Resist, too. 70% resist on a Puppet Snowfall means the unit takes what, 7.5% damage on average? That's not scary at all.

We've already commited >800b to Feud.

I thought you and Ellimist had discussed tech path in game?

Or are we teching Feud just because someone had to fuck around with the queued tech?

[Thoth]

Food for thought:

The Gnomes have a GE in Clown territory and have had it there for some turns now. They could have ToD'd AL ahead of the Wizzzards, but chose not to.

What are they saving him for?

[Mardoc]

It's got a SW and Warrens. Unless the game suddenly changes to "Always Peace" then there is nothing more useful we can do with this city than spam out chariots. smile

I wouldn't bet against it, I just hate to say things like 'always' and 'never'. Things can always change.

You've got me puzzled with the "puppet makes that 30% damage"?

I don't think this has changed?

Even if they do "only" 30%, that's two Snowfalls + 3 Djin to redline the top 3 defenders who didn't take much Blizzard damage plus whatever skellies they can muster over the next few turns. Plus a couple of catapult strikes and fireball hits to soften things up first. So we're looking at defenders around 30-40% health.

We may be able to hold Saltus (5/6 Saltus built BPs, 6-8 moroi, 4 wolf riders and a medic are a lot of bodies to kill) but I don't want to risk high exp units and weak defenders that are expensive to replace (cats and Chariots).

Yeah, generally agreed. Just saying that it'll take a bit of time between 'have promo' and 'will murder'. Gibbon needs to summon two puppets, they have to bring up the support troops, etc.

If we can trade Saltus for more time, even better.

We've already commited >800b to Feud.

I thought you and Ellimist had discussed tech path in game?

Or are we teching Feud just because someone had to fuck around with the queued tech?

We've discussed, but you know me, I'm not terribly decisive. Two turns ago I believed in Iron Working . I won't be certain that we're right until it works. Ask me again in 15 turns if we did the right tech path and I might have a clue.

[Merovech]

Is that -10% damage total or -10% of the normal damage dealt?