Erebus in the Balance PBEMXXVI Map & Lurker Thread

[Ellimist]

Why is there a lizardman ruin so close to the Sheaim capital? That's almost like starting him off in a permanent choke.

[Qgqqqqq]

Basically, it was there randomly and I missed it

[Ellimist]

Okay, I REALLY hate to intervene in these games as a lurker, but this map is going to be brutal. These players are self-identified newbies to FFH/EITB. This isn't a "kicking the little bird out of the nest so that he learns to fly" sort of experience. It's more like dropping it out of a weather balloon at the edge of space.


I took a look at the lairs on the map:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/84822082/Realms...dSwordSave


The Sheaim are even more screwed than it first appeared.

Yes, that is three barb-spawning lairs within 3 turns travel distance of their capital, including two Lizardman ruins. There are a total of four lizardman ruins on the map, and here are two of them.


The Balseraphs have a different problem... The Guardian of Pristin Pass. It will only spawn barbarians once, but when it does it will be three gargoyles. Gargoyles are 6/8 and have two moves, and are not prevented from entering borders or razing cities.

There's also a barrow and fort not too far from there start, but skeletons and goblins are at parity with non-bronze warriors and it's likely to only slow them down. I'd estimate their odds of getting destroyed by the gargoyles at about 70%, depending on when they trigger it and whether the gargoyles stay together or split up.

On the other hand...

The Hippus.
They get to settle on a plains hill with double dye and corn on the river, plus incense to the north and ancient forests in the BFC. But they have limited expansion prospects unless they go towards their neighbor. They have the best shot at settling the Yggdrasil, and they can grab river corn, river gold, and river dye with that city as well. But then, they're pretty much forced to warcry rush their neighbor who starts 7 tiles away from them.

They might even have some lizardmen helping them bring down the Ljosalfar.

Okay, so... Summarizing...

My main concern with the map is whether the players are in fact aware of what they'll be getting. The map isn't just "not balanced", it is massively, incredibly unbalanced. Now, if the players had asked for a randomly generated map with no balancing, I could see how you could hand them a map like this. But the fact that you've made clear and obvious edits across this map and it's still so unbalanced means that you're leaving yourself open to a lot of justified criticism

I didn't check to see exactly which edits were made, but this statement is still very valid.

The Hippus capital is very good. The others also good, but they have barbarians to deal with and the Hippus are the only civilization that gets a complete pass on lairs. Then the Hippus have the best unique feature in the game close enough to be part of their second city, with several other strong tiles very close to it. Then, the Ljosalfar/Hippus starts are closer by far than any other civs have it, and the Hippus worldspell is going to be brutal. Overall, the Ljosalfar would have things better, except the Hippus are forced by the terrain to rush the Ljosalfar(crap land in the only other direction) and they have the tools to do it.

The Sheaim are going to be dead or crippled by the barbarians, and Balseraphs will probably end up facing down 3 gargoyles before turn 20. The Sidar could do okay, but they're going to be no match for whoever comes out on top of the Hippus/Ljosalfar situation.


At a minimum, the players should be given that BCW quote I copied above. They aren't going to get good use out of their various civilizations' toys, and some of them are predestined to fail miserably. They didn't ask for balance, but they didn't ask for massive and obvious imbalance either.

[Qgqqqqq]

Hippus lose a dye if they settle the PH.
Otherwise your comments are completely valid about the sheaim (I really wish is looked at the lair placements in closer detail), and I disagree with your points on the closeness of hippus/ljolsofar - this is a diplo game, I doubt they'll lose it all to a rush as you suggest - and each is pre inclined to explore in a different direction by the jungle barrier/demons.
As to the bals, I don't think they'll activate the that'd ians as it is on a mountain and can be seen from two tiles away.


You're points on lairs may well be worth changing though - unfortunately I've just sent my computer off to be fixed and won't have Civ access for about a week.

If someone is willing to make the changes/other lurkers think its bad enough, then I'm willing to call a restart to the game.

[Merovech]

Huh, weird. I thought that I posted an agreement with most of Ellimist's points shortly after he made them (most notably not the Guardians point, and all with a limited knowledge of the map).

[HidingKneel]

Apart from the issues just raised, a quick impression on looking at the screenshots is that the Ljosalfar got the short end of the commerce stick. 2 silks + 2 cottons is a lot worse than 2 incense or 2 dyes (let alone what the Hippus got), since you need twice as many citizens to work them and twice as many worker turns to get them improved.

[Qgqqqqq]

Okay I think that last is unfair - while the commerce per citizen is less, I think this is overcome by a) having a greater total commerce output from resources and b) being the only start with two happy available.
Moreover the hippus start isn't that amazing - it does have garland but no floodplains, and the plains hill would lose the second dye.

[Qgqqqqq]

Thanks elliminst, sorry you got that forced on you :/



What did you change exactly?

[Ellimist]

Removed all lizardman ruins from the map
Moved the Guardian of Pristin Pass to the Letum Frigus region
Added 4 extra Yggdrasil to the map so that each player has a shot at one
Removed the starting settler bonus from the settlers and replaced it with mobility 1 and 2. This was so that they don't find "their" Yggdrasil and settle it with their capital.
Modified the lake east of the Hippus start so that they can expand away from the Ljosalfar if they choose to. I also placed a weak held unit at the new chokepoint
Added a few special units to the map, including a repentant angel on an island with the Ring of Carcer. It probably won't be killed for awhile but whoever does it will get the Dragon's Hoard. There are also some boosted spiders in various places intended for capturing.
Added a bonus tile to some of the lakes to encourage people to use them.


It's all in keeping with your theme.

[Qgqqqqq]

Erm you should mention that there are "unnatural" barbs on the map, as that was one of the briefs I was given (that there be no unusual barbs - otherwise id have demons on the hell terrain).
I like the changes myself though .
Post the map?