Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Yeah feel free to delete those posts, I don't know why I decided to continue that stupid derail (I blame Ruff).

For content, one worry of mine is that pushing for a T200 NAP makes us seem defensive, as if it's something that will disproportionately benefit us, instead of them. We have to sell it some way as giving them a safe front to pick on someone else. Spanish Poly of course, they'll be the eternal victim on that side of the world. Or WPC once CFC expands north enough.

[Ruff_Hi]

New message from CFC that doesn't seem to have been posted ...

Hey Scooter/RB,

The team has decided that we will settle 1S of the rice (this means we are fine with getting stone from t106 and not t105).

Here is the formal agreement I spoke of on GTalk, to be signed by your team (I have included BBCode to make it easier for you to post it on your forums):

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Section 1. Members of the RB-CFC treaty

1.1. Team Realms Beyond

1.2. Team CivFanatics

Section 2. Pact Duration and Terms

2.1. The pact binds both teams to adhering to all of the clauses of the pact as a whole.

2.2. The pact lasts until the beginning of turn 175.

2.3. The members of this pact cannot enter into agreements with third parties which interfere to any of the clauses of this pact.

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.1. The members agree not to conduct actions which will lead to a declaration of war between the members of this pact for the duration of the pact.

Section 4. Open Borders

4.1. Both members agree to maintain an Open Borders treaty to facilitate trade and unit movement for the length of this pact.

Section 5. Resources and future agreements

5.1. Team Realms Beyond agrees to gift Spices happy resource to Team CivFanatics starting from turn 103 and keep providing it for free for the duration of this pact.

5.2. Team Realms Beyond agrees to gift Stone strategic resource to Team CivFanatics starting from turn 106 and keep providing it for free for the duration of this pact.

5.3 Team Realms Beyond agrees to not get Pyramids and Team CivFanatics agrees to not get Hanging Gardens.

5.4 Both teams agree to offer first dibs to newly acquired/unused resources to the other team at an appropriate price (happy resource for happy resource or for a price of 2 GPT per city count of the team receiving the resource)

Section 6. Espionage

6.1. Both members agree to not spend/gain espionage points against eachother.

6.2. Both members agree to not perform espionage actions against eachother .

Section 7. Temporary Exceptions

7.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

Section 8. Amendments

8.1. A proposed amendment may be submitted by either member.

8.2. A proposed amendment will be adopted upon agreement of both members.
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I think this sums up exactly what we all want from our deal, and we have no problems accepting and signing it in it's current form.

Keep in mind that any additional protective clauses that may be suggested as amendments will be a two-way deal. Both our teams wish to feel secure, so we are open to suggestions for amendments that are rational and maintains the interests of both our teams. We are working on possible additional clauses of the NAP, and we are sure we can come to an agreement on them as soon as the main body of this pact is signed, without any of our teams feeling the weight of time pressure to get this out of the way. Here are some suggestions that we think are rational to put in as clausules:

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3.2. If any of the members is at war with a third party, the other member agrees not to gift units to that third party.
3.3. Both teams agree not to use Great Artists to culture bomb in cities touching culture with culture of the other team.
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If you like the suggested amendments, you can include 3.2 and 3.3 in the treaty, and return it to us signed, and we have a deal. We want the main deal without the amendments signed this turn, as we can not afford to postpone settling our city on the isthmus any further, while the deal with the stone from you is still uncertain.

I blame Ruff

I reject your blame.

[novice]

at CFC's diplomacy. Settling 1S of the rice serves no other purpose than pissing us off. The moment they refuse to prolong their nap we'll have to preemptively raze that city...

Their loss.

[Sullla]

Not perfect, but we can live with it. I'm OK with this deal.

[scooter]

Annoying they won't flex on the rice issue. However, I still think we sign this with 3.2 and 3.3 added.

Also, we have our first official confirmation that Sommerswerd is now heavily involved here. He almost certainly wrote the language of that message, not Caledorn.

[Lewwyn]

Section 7. Temporary Exceptions

7.1. Temporary exceptions can be made to the terms of the pact with the express agreement of both members. This is meant to allow either member to react to unforeseen circumstances or circumstances outside of their control.

50 turns from now...

"It was unforeseen that you would runaway with the game therefore we must declare war on you. Sorry."

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Thoughts:

• I hate anyone who will use the word "clausule" related in any way to a game or activity purportedly intended as entertainment.
  
• Section 5.2 - Amend to read "Team Realms Beyond agrees to gift INSERT "surplus" Stone strategic resource to Team CivFanatics starting from turn 106 and keep providing it for free for the duration of this pact."
  
• Section 5.4 - Is 2 GPT/city a commonly agreed upon amount for happiness resource? I do not recall this coming up in our discussion and I am unfamiliar with this practice.
  
• Section 7.1 - This looks like a way to weasel out of the agreement by engineering a diplomatic emergency elsewhere. Subject to interpretation, I suppose.
  

If the amendment to the stone clause causes concern, we can indicate that we are open to discussing when we intend to pursue specific stone wonders during our agreement. After we sweep up HG, TGW, and the Pyramids are off the board, there aren't too many Stone wonders left (Angkor Wat, Oxford, Kremlin, Spiral Minaret, University of Sankore) that I would be concerned about. Of these, Oxford is certain, Kremlin very late, and Spiral Minaret, I don't see us teching Divine Right just to get it, and I'm less interested in AW or UoS. Or, do we think that we'd do better to keep our wonder plans to ourselves? Generally, I would prefer just that, but I'd rather not have them burn the treaty in a huff later on if we should somehow lose BbB and access to stone for our team and the word "surplus" was not in the agreement. Thoughts?

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Preview edit: Lewwyn's point is valid. As I said above, this point seems entirely subjective.

[darrelljs]

Shouldn't we add a clause for a 10T Marble loan?

Darrell

[scooter]

7.1 explicitly says it only works if both parties agree to it. And yeah I'd like to add a marble clause.

[Shoot the Moon]

Shouldn't we add a clause for a 10T Marble loan?

Darrell

This.

Also agree with surplus stone. Also, should make sure to include not allowing an opposing army through with OB to attack us.

EDIT: crossposted with scooter