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Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

#1,971
February 19th, 2013, 17:49
darrelljs Offline
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Great! This could well be a pivotal moment in our eventual victory smile.

Darrell
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#1,972
February 19th, 2013, 18:30
kjn Offline
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My paranoia hit too late, sorry, but might it be possible to add another term to the stone gift. That we are released from providing stone the moment they have connected a source of stone of their own.
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#1,973
February 20th, 2013, 00:43
Merovech Offline
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(February 19th, 2013, 13:06)Ruff_Hi Wrote: 3.1. The members agree not to conduct actions which will could lead to a declaration of war between the members of this pact for the duration of the pact.

There are plenty of actions that will not lead to a declaration of war that we want to avoid. Either we change the above to be more inclusive, or we detail them.

I am very glad we got this deal done, but Ruff's comment worries me, as does some other minor wording issues.

What is the status of diplo victory in this game? I assume that it is not banned. Didn't Sommers "win" a demogame like this already?
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#1,974
February 20th, 2013, 01:13 (This post was last modified: February 20th, 2013, 01:14 by fluffyflyingpig.)
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Thank you scooter for putting in the time and effort into diplo!


Actual deal.... eh. A long NAP is good. We got the marble concession, which is better than nothing. However, Sommer is WAY better at the whole contractual weaselword bullshit game than RB. People here are too nice. We need to clean up the wording on the agreement ASAP, before we start snowballing out of control.

This in particular is hilarious:
Quote:3.1. The members agree not to conduct actions which will lead to a declaration of war between the members of this pact for the duration of the pact.

You can't do anything that will make us declare war on you! If you do, the NAP is null and void and we will declare war on you! bang
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#1,975
February 20th, 2013, 01:47 (This post was last modified: February 20th, 2013, 01:47 by antisocialmunky.)
antisocialmunky Offline
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(February 20th, 2013, 01:13)fluffyflyingpig Wrote: Actual deal.... eh. A long NAP is good. We got the marble concession, which is better than nothing. However, Sommer is WAY better at the whole contractual weaselword bullshit game than RB. People here are too nice. We need to clean up the wording on the agreement ASAP, before we start snowballing out of control.

You miss one thing. If we ever get into a situation where we are rules lawyering on every word with CFC, there's not much relationship left to really salvage. And if they are trying to win, then our only allies will be enemies of our enemies. I wouldn't worry about thinking your way around all the rules lawyering with these agreements because if it gets to that stage, it is already too late.
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#1,976
February 20th, 2013, 02:17 (This post was last modified: February 20th, 2013, 02:17 by mostly_harmless.)
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(February 20th, 2013, 01:47)antisocialmunky Wrote:
(February 20th, 2013, 01:13)fluffyflyingpig Wrote: Actual deal.... eh. A long NAP is good. We got the marble concession, which is better than nothing. However, Sommer is WAY better at the whole contractual weaselword bullshit game than RB. People here are too nice. We need to clean up the wording on the agreement ASAP, before we start snowballing out of control.

You miss one thing. If we ever get into a situation where we are rules lawyering on every word with CFC, there's not much relationship left to really salvage. And if they are trying to win, then our only allies will be enemies of our enemies. I wouldn't worry about thinking your way around all the rules lawyering with these agreements because if it gets to that stage, it is already too late.
Exactly. The moment CFC tries to be clever with rules lawyering, we do this:


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#1,977
February 20th, 2013, 03:25
Nicolae Carpathia Offline
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The problem is if they use the rule lawyering to attack us around T125 or something, because the old NAP is void and the new NAP suddenly no longer applies.
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#1,978
February 20th, 2013, 03:47
kjn Offline
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I'm not worried about an early attack based on rules-lawyering from CFC.

First, the military situation. We have a stronger military, and will soon have not only catapults but war elephants as well. A very bad time for offensive warfare for them.

Second, the diplomatic situation. If Sommerswerd wants to use diplomacy to engineer his path to victory, he needs time to work on the other teams. He haven't had that yet, and if he tries to rules-lawyer his way out of the NAP with us, then it will make it much harder for him to work on the other teams.

And if he tries to organise a dogpile based on rules-lawyering us, then I guarantee all the normal reasons why dogpiles fail will apply doubly.
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#1,979
February 20th, 2013, 08:49
Dantski Offline
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(February 20th, 2013, 03:47)kjn Wrote: I'm not worried about an early attack based on rules-lawyering from CFC.

First, the military situation. We have a stronger military, and will soon have not only catapults but war elephants as well. A very bad time for offensive warfare for them.

Second, the diplomatic situation. If Sommerswerd wants to use diplomacy to engineer his path to victory, he needs time to work on the other teams. He haven't had that yet, and if he tries to rules-lawyer his way out of the NAP with us, then it will make it much harder for him to work on the other teams.

And if he tries to organise a dogpile based on rules-lawyering us, then I guarantee all the normal reasons why dogpiles fail will apply doubly.

dito

The EP agreement means we'll have plenty of warning regarding military buildup, also we could always stick a cheap unit on the plains hill 1S2E of their new city which would give us full vision of that area.

CFC get plenty out of the NAP with us, a safe border just like we do which gives them ample opportunity to attack a weak team, plsu a free happiness resource right away. Later on they'll get an option on more resource trades with us which should give them a small boost too. I'm not sure whether they see our Civ as strong or a runaway just yet, but given that they signed this NAP makes me think that they believe they can deal with us (with help) after the current NAP expires.
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#1,980
February 20th, 2013, 09:16
regoarrarr Offline
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Just bumping this - this was our message from CivPlayers from yesterday

Quote:Greetings Scooter,

I hope we can agree on the following: as I said previously turn 110 NAP is fine. Also, starting from then, NAP is considered valid unless denounced with 10 turns in advance. (i.e: that means one side can attack the other no sooner than T120 smile ) We would also like to use the land between our nations. As you have very well pointed out, that land is rubbish, so there shouldn't be anything to negociate for, right?

Regarding the OB, I'm still working on that. The 2 workers were merely a suggestion, I'm open for anything that would show us your good will and that would give me a leverage into trying to convince our High Council to sign the agreement.

Since you have started out the military discussion, I feel obligated to continue them as questions arise in our War Ministery. You do have, as you have kindly pointed out, one of the largest armies in the world. Do you plan any attacks in the future? Can we get involved as part of that plan, would it give it any added value? Could we count on you for any military actions?

I look forward to hearing your answer. If you feel that there are things that we should discuss directly, I will try to make time in my busy schedule. Just let me know.

Best wishes,

Decebal
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