We have no plans for war currently, but we need to protect ourselves. We currently have a neighbor that is refusing a longer term NAP while whipping in military buildings and teching military techs, so we're concerned that they have plans to attack us. That neighbor is you guys . We're not interested in war this early in the game when there is still land to be settled. However, you guys are showing signs of war buildup mode, so of course we are concerned. A 10 turn NAP cooldown is not much time at all. Either way, you guys are avoiding any talks of a longer NAP, so until you are willing to sign a longer NAP, we're going to make sure our defenses are extremely strong. I hope you can understand that type of prudence. If you guys are building up to attack a different neighbor, we're of course happy to give you a longer NAP so you can do that without worrying about us. You don't seem interested, though, and that's concerning to us.
That said, we have NAPs with all our other immediate neighbors, and they all last longer than the NAP with your team. So to be clear, if you try to get aggressive with us, we will be extremely prepared to handle things. Your teching of Theology and the units you are pre-whipping for the eventual Theocracy bonus has not gone unnoticed . However, I do hope we can come to an agreement where conflict won't be necessary as it'll just hurt both of us.
We would also prefer we get an agreement about the land between our cities. Specifically, any plant from either of us between Brick By Brick, Tlaxcala, and Xothicalco would be A) on very bad land and B) very aggressive. We both would get much better peace of mind to just leave that land alone and settle elsewhere. We would be happy to promise not to settle in that region if you will do the same. Let me know what you think about this.
We are delighted that you have agreed with the plan. Our preparations are well underway.
I doubt we will have any problems taking out the German team.
I hope the game will not slow down too much when the war starts.
In that case, lets just wish for a quick end to their resistance.
Indeed, the real two pronged attack would be much easier to manage without mixing the units.
We agree with your assessment.
The natural and probably the best method would be us attacking from the north and you attacking from the south. Thus the German team has to fight a real two fronted war. We should discuss the details when the "D-day" approaches.
Yes, we agree that any possible peace negotiation with the German team will be done together. I doubt we have need for such negotiations, but that might be a case in unfortunate 3rd party involvement. NAPs are in place, but one can't prevent 100% the possibility of backstabbing from our neighbors. Lets be on alert.
RB Wrote:Hey guys. We are a little confused by what you are trying to tell us in your message, did we miss something? We have several players who are very comfortable in Spanish, so if you would like to just explain in Spanish that would be fine too.
Ok, lengthy chat with CivPlayers. Sorry in advance for the length - I tried to underline key moments. I tried to separate it into "paragraphs" just to make it easier to read as well as add a little bit of commentary.
Chat with CivPlayers Wrote:<snip opening greetings and whatnot>
[1:59:34 PM] scooter ok. so I get the feeling we're not really understanding each other very well in emails
[1:59:34 PM] Decebal ok, so, to sumarize, what are the topics we are discussing today?
[1:59:58 PM] scooter IMO it would be nice to know where each team stands on 3 specific issues
[2:00:10 PM] scooter 1) preferences on longer-term NAP agreements
[2:00:15 PM] scooter 2) border settlings
[2:00:18 PM] scooter 3) open borders
[2:00:42 PM] scooter to me, significance is roughly in that order
<snip some comments just orienting each other on where cities are located>
[2:04:23 PM] Decebal if i am not mistaken you asked that we don't plant anything else in between
[2:04:36 PM] Decebal which is highly unacceptable from our point of view
[2:04:51 PM] Decebal if you planted your terrain faster it doesn't mean we don't get to plant ours, is that correct?
[2:05:25 PM] scooter what we are trying to avoid is a tense culture war where we are fighting each other for tiles
[2:05:37 PM] Decebal that we can agree upon
[2:05:39 PM] scooter there are very few unclaimed tiles between us, and no resources
[2:05:44 PM] scooter the main thing between us
[2:05:48 PM] Decebal south there are resources
[2:05:50 PM] scooter is 2 floodplains tiles that are unclaimed
[2:06:05 PM] Decebal north I can accept the compromise of not planting for those floods
[2:06:15 PM] Decebal but south we have resources that we can plant for
[2:06:32 PM] scooter (trying to find a better picture of the south portion, one sec)
[2:07:03 PM] Decebal i think we can share screenshots if it's land we both know of? or not until paper?
[2:07:11 PM] Decebal nm, i am trying to log in anyway
[2:07:22 PM] scooter not until paper sadly . we voted in favor of allowing the screenshots but we got voted down
[2:07:44 PM] scooter ok. in the south we have a city called Seven Tribes. do you have visibility on it?
[2:08:11 PM] Decebal I'mlogging in hold on a few secs
[2:08:28 PM] Decebal Anyway, you said NAP comes first on your priority list
[2:08:31 PM] Decebal What would you suggest?
[2:08:54 PM] Decebal I said ok to 110 turn, you said it's less than others. What do you have with others then? Or what would suit you?
[2:10:07 PM] scooter the issue is we're already on T103-104 or so. if you guys initiate cooldown on T110, 10T is not much time to prep. so we'd like it if we can both avoid an unecessary buildup
[2:10:40 PM] scooter we would like something much longer, closer to T170-180 or so. specific number isn't a huge deal
[2:11:00 PM] scooter but something like that would be a nice way of both of us showing we don't want conflict
[2:12:50 PM] scooter to be honest, we think your team is one of the strong teams. at some point in the game (whether in 15-20 turns or 40-50 turns) both of our teams will probably look to conquer a neighbor I'm sure
[2:12:58 PM] scooter and it seems smart to make sure we dont target each other
[2:13:08 PM] Decebal ok, i am in [NOTE: he's referring to in-game here]
[2:13:41 PM] scooter and who knows, maybe we target the same team and work together, or maybe we conquer different targets, but either way, I think if we fight each other, it's a stalemate
[2:14:43 PM] Decebalwell 170 is a bit too much
[2:14:51 PM] DecebalI mean, we would sign that, but only with a very close friend
[2:15:12 PM] DecebalAnd as I told you, we need strong evidence of that friendship before walking into one
[2:15:30 PM] Decebal Do you actually have someone who signed a T180 NAP?
[2:16:10 PM] scooter no, quite a few of our NAPs end before then. they vary a bit, but a lot are halfway between what we have with you and that longer length
[2:16:45 PM] scooter and in a perfect world, there may be one or two we don't extend
[2:17:10 PM] Decebal well, between when we started talking and now some turns passed, I have to admit I didn't check regularly on the current turns being played
[2:17:30 PM] Decebal So you have a city north working wheat
[2:17:35 PM] Decebal and one south working sea food, right?
[2:17:40 PM] scooter yes
[2:18:05 PM] Decebal Do you plan to expand further that river? or will your borders expand further anyway?
[2:18:33 PM] scooter both of our cities closest to you - they have popped their borders. it will take quite some time before they pop again
[note: this last comment was before I was reminded via chat by kjn that HG will pop Seven Tribes in 10T or so, so I hope this is not an issue with CivPlayers, but I don't think it is based on what comes below]
[2:18:54 PM] Decebal ok
[2:18:59 PM] scooter and we don't see a need to settle further southwest
[2:19:05 PM] Decebalbecause there are still resource to be planted on our side
[2:19:21 PM] scootereast of xochialco?
[2:19:28 PM] Decebalsouth of it
[2:19:32 PM] Decebalalso a deer sw of your city
[2:19:32 PM] scooter ah. well that makes sense
[2:20:08 PM] Decebalwe'd like to regard that river as the natural border line, if it's fine with you
[2:20:20 PM] scooter yeah I think that's very reasonable
[2:20:41 PM] scooter we're not concerned about you working land that is rightfully yours
[2:20:48 PM] scooterwe're just trying to avoid you settling a city 3 tile from one of our cities
[2:21:21 PM] Decebalas for those 2 floods, although we have made plans to plant for them, consider it the first sign of good will we're making today
[2:21:38 PM] Decebal you seemed very aggresive when it came to discussing borders :P
[2:21:45 PM] Decebal in your emails that is
[2:21:51 PM] scooter haha sorry! it's easy to miscommunicate by email :/. it's hard sometimes
This is the key section for the main portion of our agreement.
[2:23:07 PM] Decebal How does turn 130 sound for the NAP?
[2:23:30 PM] Decebal with the 10 turns buffer that I think we have already agreed upon
[2:23:35 PM] Decebal making it turn 140 in effect
[2:25:06 PM] Decebal And we can start discussions about another one whenever you'd like
[2:26:04 PM] scooter (one sec, still here)
[2:27:32 PM] scooter ok. the NAP sounds good. and to go with it, how about this simple border clause
[2:28:21 PM] scooter 1) during the NAP, RB wil not settle southwest of the two cities we have in the area (so we will not settle across the river)
[2:28:58 PM] scooter 2) during the NAP, CivPlayers will not settle the minimum distance from one of RB's cities (3 tiles) OR settle on the lake coast to threaten our seafood
[2:29:06 PM] scooter does that seems fair to you?
[2:29:17 PM] Decebal yes, we can agree on that
[2:29:47 PM] DecebalAlso, do you agree on the 10 turns warning before being able to attack, for either sides?
[2:30:07 PM] Decebal Just so we have it clearly agree between us
[2:30:10 PM] scooter yes. so NAP can be canceled no earlier than T130, and cancellation means 10T buffer
[2:30:11 PM] Decebal agreed
[2:30:33 PM] Decebal I ment the 10 turns buffers stand up in any case
[2:31:19 PM] DecebalIf we have a longer NAP in place, it runs after the NAP expires. If we don't, it acts as an "every turn" signed NAP between our 2 nations.
[2:31:55 PM] scooter agreed
[2:31:56 PM] Decebal So, at any given point in time, no side can attack the other without the 10 turns warning
[2:32:01 PM] scooter yes, sounds great
[2:32:11 PM] scooter so if we have no NAP agreement on T131 but nobody has canceled it
[2:32:23 PM] scooter then there could be no attacks prior to T141 in that case
[2:32:25 PM] scooter and so on
[2:32:28 PM] Decebal indeed
[2:32:30 PM] scooter great
[2:33:05 PM] DecebalWe can discuss longer NAPs if and when you see fit, after the current one expires.
[2:33:17 PM] Decebal About the Open Borders, as i said, you gain more from it than we do
[2:33:30 PM] scooter yeah we can discuss that further down the line
[2:33:45 PM] scooter for OB - that's actually not true anymore. we have OB with several teams now
[2:33:49 PM] scooter so we have foreign routes in every city
[2:34:29 PM] scooter i'm sure a couple of your cities would yield better routes so we would profit a little bit, but not a lot
[2:35:27 PM] DecebalOk, I understand that, but I'm still waiting for that little gesture of good will that would tell me that you're seeking our friendship and not only personal gains. So far, we've bargained like 2 business men but nothing more.
I want to make special note of this last message he sent. I think that right there is the heart of why they've been seemingly stubborn with us. They seem quite hesitant to sign agreements, and they read our negotiation so far as business-only. That's accurate, really. Let's keep this in mind with them going forward.
[2:37:21 PM] Decebal So, I'll agree to Open Borders (again! hopefuly you're noticing it ) and I'm also asking a question which will hopefuly be answered straight.
[2:37:23 PM] scooter from our perspective, we would not really gain much from OB as I explained. however, we're definitely willing to sign them if you would profit from routes with us
[2:37:52 PM] scooter this is where I think we got mixed up in our last few emails
[2:38:21 PM] Decebal Do you have any precise military plans for the next period?
[2:38:43 PM] scooter but when it comes to "gains" for us, we don't see OB as a serious gain. but we have some a few large ciites that would yield very nice routes, and I think those would help you guys. (though I can't say for sure as I don't know your trade route situation)
[2:39:02 PM] scooter precise, no. but of course we throw around ideas.
[2:39:21 PM] DecebalI do, trust me, we don't have gains from ob as much as you. (hopefuly not none)
[2:39:30 PM] Decebalbut i have already agreed to open the borders for trade
I feel like he's not being totally honest with me here. But they do agree to OB regardless.
[2:39:46 PM] scooter are you interested in mutual Right of Passage? Or is that not something you want?
[2:40:02 PM] Decebal Not right now, we see no reasons for that.
[2:40:16 PM] Decebal And we're not fond of spy explorering either, on any side
[2:40:52 PM] scooter ok, yeah definitely understandable
[2:41:05 PM] Decebal Does your plans include us ?
[2:41:10 PM] Decebal I mean do :P
[2:41:11 PM] Decebal lol
[2:41:38 PM] scooter what type of plans? are you talking peaceful plans or military plans?
[2:41:51 PM] Decebal I said military
[2:42:59 PM] scooter ok. we have no precise military plans like you asked. however, we have 4 immediate neighbors. you are one of them obviously. we do not think you make sense as a target.
[2:43:10 PM] scooter and we hope you feel the same about us in regards to your neighbors
[2:43:40 PM] Decebal What about joint military campaigns?
[2:43:57 PM] scooter we're always open to ideas. have anybody in mind?
[2:44:18 PM] scooter i will keep it confidential between only yoru team and my team if you're concerned about that
[2:45:53 PM] Decebal We're also open to ideas, anyone you wouldn't feel like attacking?
This type of evasiveness does get old. He rarely answers direct questions, but he acts moderately offended when I avoid questions.
[2:46:55 PM] scooter very careful answer . well the issue is I'm not sure who we share borders with. your core cities are further south of the lake, right?
[2:47:14 PM] scooter meaning, your city up by the floodplains is a far north city for you I believe?
[2:47:50 PM] Decebal something like that, we've been careful to keep the heart of our empire in the middle for best defense
[2:48:09 PM] Decebal but we're not talking about us here , are we?
[2:48:39 PM] scooter well it matters because a joint-attack shoudl be someone we both border. and I don't think we do right now. maybe we would in 40-50 turns though?
[2:49:03 PM] scooter for instance, we have neighbors to our north, but you aren't very close to them
[2:49:18 PM] scooter or neighbors to our southwest that you are probably quite far from as well
[2:49:58 PM] Decebal I see
[2:50:14 PM] scooter what I'm saying: a joint-attack could work quite well, but it needs a target. I don't know if we have one that we would both like to hit right now... right? but maybe that would change in the future as we both expand
[2:50:22 PM] Decebal So you wouldn't consider attacking anyone but your neighbours, even if that ment helping out a friend?
[2:50:30 PM] scooter at which point we would be very open to the idea
[2:50:41 PM] scooter well it's more about logistics
[2:50:47 PM] scooter units take a long time to travel at this stage
[2:51:40 PM] scooter I'll put it this way: if you have something specific to propose in which we could help, we would be willing to consider. but you aren't asking for anything specific so it's really hard to answer
[2:52:01 PM] Decebal That's the answer I wanted, that you are willing to consider.
We chatted a couple more minutes after that, but there was nothing concrete. He asked a hypothetical on if we'd be willing to help them if they're attacked, and I basicaly gave a non-committal but positive answer, reminded him of pre-engineer logistical problems, and he seemed satisfied.
I apologize for the length and that I couldn't cut more out, but it seemed necessary given the circumstances.
Great, glad we're in agreement and moving the same direction! We'll definitely want to discuss the finer details as the date gets closer, but for now T150 is quite a ways away. We will be planning with an eye on that date.
Would you be interested in us spreading our religion to your capital? We see you don't have a state religion, so we thought you might be interested in ours if we sent you guys a missionary. Just let me know if that sounds helpful and we'll send a missionary right away.
Vamos a atacar / descollar/ desplumar / freír / mutilar / descuartizar / descoser / aniquilar / curtir a CFC.
Nuestro ejercito de Impis y catapultas están de camino a la frontera.
Quieren unirse a la fiesta? CFC es un imperio muy grande y hay para repartirse. No queremos que la guerra se vaya muy larga y pretendemos tomar todas las ciudades que nos interesan cuanto antes y asi poder seguir mejorando nuestras propias ciudades. Si Uds nos ayudan, se quedaran con las ciudades que conquisten y nos harán la tarea a ambos mas fácil.
The basic gist in English (I'm sure others can do much better):
Quote:We're gonna f*** up CFC real good.
Our army of Impis and Catapults are on their way to the border.
RB Wrote:Thanks for the explanation! Unfortunately, we are bound to a non-aggression pact with CFC, so we cannot declare war on them. Otherwise it might be fun! Don't worry - we will not tell them of your plans . Also, we already have a deal with CFC where we are giving them Spices and Stone. I thought you should know that we agreed on that before you told us of your plans - we are not trying to help them against you! Good luck!
I wrote this message up in our forum before I sent it, and one of my team members volunteered to translate it to Spanish. I figured I might as well include it just in case it's helpful, so here it is.
¡Gracias por su explanación! Desafortunadamente, acabamos de firmar un pacto de no agresión con CFC hace dos turnos y no podemos declararles guerra. Si no tuvieramos este pacto, la guerra hubiera sido más divertida. También le queremos informar que parte del acuerdo con CFC es que tenemos que regalarles piedra y especias. No queremos ayudar a CFC contra ustedes, estos regalos estan parte del acuerdo. No se preocupen, no vamos a decir nada a nadie de sus planes. Lo sentimos mucho que no podemos ayudar mas en este momento. ¡Buena suerte en sus aventuras y que disfruten de la fiesta!
. We're not interested in war this early in the game when there is still land to be settled. However, you guys are showing signs of war buildup mode, so of course we are concerned. A 10 turn NAP cooldown is not much time at all. Either way, you guys are avoiding any talks of a longer NAP, so until you are willing to sign a longer NAP, we're going to make sure our defenses are extremely strong. I hope you can understand that type of prudence. If you guys are building up to attack a different neighbor, we're of course happy to give you a longer NAP so you can do that without worrying about us. You don't seem interested, though, and that's concerning to us. 
. However, I do hope we can come to an agreement where conflict won't be necessary as it'll just hurt both of us. 
. we voted in favor of allowing the screenshots but we got voted down
