Lewwyn: look at that
got everyone
BRick: woot
Scooter: nicely done
Pindicator: we're like a circus
BRick: hi
Commodore: Awesome
Lewwyn: so you think no WB first is a mistake for the water cap?
Commodore: So, I hear Fin Fishing starts are awesome
But I also hear they get you killed by Khmer.
Lewwyn: lol
Pindicator: low blow
Scooter: that's it. i'm gone.
juuust kidding
Commodore: I'm not quite sure about the WB start.
Scooter: huayna just got picked
Commodore: If it was wet wheat, or corn, I'd say worker easily
Lewwyn: so rice isn't enough?
Scooter: on WB start - i haven't done the math yet. it would need testing. just a hunch that it's better
Pindicator: we should play it out
Commodore: Well, it might be enough.
Commodore: Fishing seems like a nice start tech...but it's awkward.
Lewwyn: I mean quick speed food box is 14 for citizen 1 right? or is it 12?
Commodore: Maya, Byzantium, HRE are all great.
Pindicator: 14
Commodore: 14
14, 16, 17
Lewwyn: you work the grass forest for 3 turns while you pop borders
thats 6h
Scooter: i keep forgetting its quick.
Lewwyn: and 6f
Scooter: i was thinking normal math in my head
Lewwyn: then work rice
Elimist: mutliply everything by .67
literally
for food box
Lewwyn: so 3 turns to city pop
Commodore: 9h
Lewwyn: 15/14 food and 15h
Commodore: Plains hill
Lewwyn: yeah I caught that
so T7 work forest plains and grass and finish WB
Commodore: T8, Fish/rice?
Lewwyn: size 2 building worker with fish + rice
so +8
5t worker
Commodore: That's a nicely set up number
Lewwyn: so worker t13
thats not too bad
Elimist: so darius/bismark/huayna so far
Lewwyn: if you go worker first it finishes in 8t
Commodore: Yeah, hellooo wonders
Seven/Mack, Ind, Ind
Elimist: pyramids and oracle will be pretty important, i think
Scooter: (side non-micro comment: bet anything smackdown takes liz)
Commodore: And we're last in turn order.
Lewwyn: well hopefully they all take leaders
Elimist: faaaantastic
Lewwyn: all the way out
Pindicator: this is pretty nice that the non Mack-7 crew is taking IND leaders
Lewwyn: so we can do the double civ pick with no reservations
Commodore: Yeah, that's ideal
Scooter: i'd ignore IND if i'm them. but whatever
Pindicator: i think we definitely ignore IND now
Scooter: yeah load up on leaders kids
Lewwyn: Well IND is also cheap forges
Scooter: PLEASE leave us HRE
Elimist: do we want HRE?
Commodore: Mansa/Hannibal/Liz all going, you think?
Pindicator: if we pick HRE then I'm going to insist on Joao
Scooter: darius/hre sounds beautiful to me. i dunno about you guys
Elimist: double fin is allowed right?
Commodore: Darius of the HRE gets free cities, basically.
Pindicator: darius/hre fed by Joao/whatever
Scooter: double fin would also be good
Elimist: darius HRE has been used a few times though, and from what i remember it always disappoints
Commodore: I've played him badly and I've played him well (with bad meta).
Scooter: i could see vicky or hannibal or something
Lewwyn: I think HRE is viable if we feed with joao :D
Elimist: FWIW it seems good to me too
Commodore: Yeah, Imp feeder to HRE
Lewwyn: I like vicky
Elimist: do we know how far apart our starts are
Commodore: Vicky/Darius is sexy
Lewwyn: not yet
Scooter: 10 tiles vertical, i think 5 horizontal?
tahts what plako said
Commodore: 10 vertical, 4 horizontal
Or the other way around?
Scooter: pretty sure 10 is vertical
Elimist: so we shouldn't have trouble gifting settlers then
Scooter: i remember that for some reason
BRick: yeah it's 10 vert
Commodore: Either way, not increibly far off.
Lewwyn: I think joao is sexier than vicky just so we're clear :D
Elimist: k
Scooter: well, we can settle and immediately gift correct?
Pindicator: yeah
Elimist: or just gift settlers
this isn't FFH
Scooter: well
Commodore: Yeah, makes it easy.
Scooter: then you have to walk all the way to borders
Commodore: Imp is probably going through
Elimist: yeah i suppose it depends on circumstances
Commodore: Clearly, Elli, we need tollerant Darius.
Elimist: yes
tolerant is good
and pair it with jonas
Commodore: :P
Scooter: btw, the double fin thing
the inland start looks really nice for a fin mega tech capital
Commodore: Joao is better as a pure feeder
Scooter: the coastal start does not
Commodore: Vicky is a better economy pick.
Any other Imp at all tempting?
Elimist: i'm not so sure joao is needed though, even with ORG rathauses
i'd really only favor IMP if it was vicky i think
Pindicator: i keep toying with cathy as an odd feeder/techer
but i'd rather do Sury in that case
Commodore: Yeah
Lewwyn: I don't think sury is gonna last lol
Scooter: i think sury wouldn't be bad at all
but yeah
Commodore: And Pericles better if the Cre route, IMO
Elimist: is CRE a good pick for our second leader?
Commodore: One other option:
Julius?
Scooter: my wishlist for the inland start goes something like: 1) vicky 2) pericles 3) <bunch of other things>
Lewwyn: my wish list is sury, joao, pericles, vicky
Commodore: Cre is...awkwardish
Lewwyn: what about mehmed?
Scooter: mehmed would be
oh man
beaten to it
Lewwyn:
Elimist: what is he again?
ORG SPI?
Scooter: exp/org
Elimist: EXP ORG right
Commodore: Means Darius better love monuments
Elimist: yeah double ORG seems good
Pindicator: lol
Elimist: is this map wtery?
watery*
Commodore: ~33%
Pindicator: not enough for circum
Commodore: So a fair amount of coast.
Scooter: i think the idea was similar to pb6
Elimist: isn't 50%+ normal though?
Commodore: Darius is the Fisher Kinf either way.
Lewwyn: I wonder if someone is going to pick org/ing (augustus right?) and run for glh
Commodore: Fin coast, etc, etc.
Scooter: and pb6 cities were what, 75% coastal?
Commodore: Org/Ind is FDR
Elimist: what do you guys think about CHA
Commodore: And Mackoti loves him.
Scooter: i like it
Elimist: from what i remember happiness will be a problem
Scooter: hannibal is still attractive to me
Lewwyn: well its not diety is it?
Commodore: Krill will be advocating Joao
Immortal
Scooter: happy is same on all difficulties
Lewwyn: yeah
godamn krill
Elimist: aren't happy caps smaller on high difficulties?
BRick: Krill will ragequit if they don't Joao
Scooter: nah, that changed in bts or something
Commodore: Sort of, HR units are more expensive.
Scooter: i think it used to be in vanilla
right that
Lewwyn: Krill will ragequit the moment any roadblocks appear
Scooter: unit costs are pretty heavily impacted by difficulty
Commodore: I want to falsify 48 reports to weedishness just to troll him.
Elimist: so early warfare is better or worse, then?
Commodore: Worse.
Scooter: DO IT DO IT
i'll start reading again if you do
Elimist: if units are expensive then won't people have smaller garrisons...?
Lewwyn: lol
yeah likely
but this si quick speed
Elimist: so... we kill them
Lewwyn: QUICK SPEED
Elimist: goddam quick
Lewwyn: they can get an army super fast
Commodore: Well yeah, but Quick conquesting is...yeah
Scooter: warfare pre-knights will be terrible bad. this will not be an exciting game for awhile
Lewwyn: stupidest thing ever
Commodore: Rumpus is naval, cataphracts, or cavs.
Pindicator: i know, very disappointed at quick speed here
Elimist: how did we get gerrymandered on game speed
Scooter: honestly this game on normal would take a year
Elimist: all the "normal speed" votes got concentrated in one team
Commodore: Oddly, it was 3-1
Lewwyn: because ALL of us want normal but we're AL on the same team
Pindicator: everyone saw lewwyn & commodore team up and wanted to avoid that
Elimist: yeah exactly...
Lewwyn: XD
Pindicator: dang, beat me to it
Lewwyn: yeah they screwed us
Commodore: Yeah, we're going to be fighting a mild mad dog expectation.
Scooter: lets kill them all
with like, rifles and junk. not axes
Lewwyn: with science!
Elimist: culture victory
Scooter: and science
Elimist: and culture
Pindicator: diplo
Scooter: that would never work
Commodore: Honestly, I'd say meta:
RMoG allies
HHHHHHHH tasty dish
SMack worst rivals.
Lewwyn: We'll blind them with science!
Commodore: Hey, I almost beat Seven via diplo once.
By getting his teammate to vote for me...
Lewwyn: you know culture victory is not impossible
BRick: http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads...cetime.jpg
Lewwyn: its quick speed after all
:D
and two hermitages
Elimist: and lewwyn adores wonders
Lewwyn: well
we only need one wonder
Commodore: Crap wonders for culture!
ToA!
Scooter: yeah except there's good teams in this game
Elimist: we should pick that wonderwhore boudica
Lewwyn:
Pindicator: Chicken Eats Ya!
Lewwyn: lol
we got shit for that but whos laughig now suckas
anywya is possible
Elimist: the thing is, if people saw you going for culture again they would probably take it TOO seriously
rather than the other way around like last time
Lewwyn: lol
it be a chance to bulid another 250+ unit stack
Elimist: who needs an excuse for that
btw for the record
i feel like we got screwed on both turn order and pick order
Scooter: pick order 1st was totally fine by me
Elimist: not sure how that happened
Lewwyn: turn order though
Elimist: yeah but the quadruple snake pick...
Lewwyn: is terribad
Elimist: i suppose someone had to be last
Scooter: quadruple snake? having the 8-9 picks together is super great too. 1st pick was pretty great
Commodore: 8-9 i nice
Lewwyn: well we got darius who can almost be paired with anyone
Pindicator: 1st turn order gets best overall with this pick strat
Elimist: yeah i guess we'll go civ-civ next right? pick other leader last
Lewwyn: and still be useful/good
Pindicator: they get to double pick twice
Commodore: Yeah, that's great
Lewwyn: btw
Vikings?
Pindicator: darius of vikings?
Scooter: yum
Pindicator: dunno honestly
Commodore: Preference probably Vicky >Joao > Mehmed > Peter here, btw
Elimist: do we really think water will be that important?
vikings have meh start techs
Scooter: wait they have hunting
neeeevermind
no thanks
Lewwyn: lol
Commodore: Water will be fairly good
Elimist: yeah we probably already want fishing
so
Pindicator: there were water battles in pb6
Elimist: we skip hunting and another if we can, maybe myst?
Lewwyn: viking and china
Elimist: yeah but would vikings have given a big enough edge on those battles?
Pindicator: or viking and any agg/wheel
Lewwyn: fishing, hunting, mining agr
Elimist: can we possibly do wheel/fishing/mining/ag?
Commodore: Lakes like this give navies play, but less manuver room
Elimist: i think we want earlyish pottery right?
Lewwyn: and forts
Commodore: Yeah, England/France, etc.
China/Japan!
Lewwyn: lol
we need early pottery
Pindicator: darius needs to be japan for cheap factories on the way to shale :P
Scooter: hey somebody should do a china/japan duel sometimes. i'm pretty sure that's never happened before
Lewwyn: if we can get wheel, agr and fishing
Scooter: very sure
Lewwyn: and go pottery first
Elimist: and mining too right?
Lewwyn: well doesn't matter as much
Elimist: i'd rather have mining than myst
Pindicator: Mali is Wheel/Mining, right?
pair them with N.A. or Dutch
Commodore: Yeah, Mali is nice
Pindicator: hmmm... late game Darius Dutch is nice to think about
Scooter: one attractive option is taking something that doesnt have agri or wheel... and go civ/leader at 8/9... and pick from one of the 50 agri/wheel civs at the end
Pindicator: gotta get there first
Elimist: that'd be a better water pick probably
than vikings
Pindicator: yeah, scooter that would be my idea on it too
Lewwyn: well it is quick speed pin
Pindicator: just thinking all those dikes and if we're feeding darius cities already, that's even more dikes
Elimist: yeah but if all the leaders are already picked or almost all of them
then we would have no reason to pick our second leader yet
Scooter: i really want to see dutch properly abused
would be fun to do it
Lewwyn: <-is dutch in pb8
Elimist: it's definitely fun in single player
Pindicator: well, hurry up and abuse someone then :P
Lewwyn: try not to win too fast comm
Elimist: moai in every city
Commodore: Yeah, good leader/HRE, Dutch/French/Egypt/Ottomen/Sumer in the last slot.
Pindicator: and if there arent any good leaders left i say we take 2 civs and pick from the remainders
Commodore: Hahah, no worries, Lewwyn, "Sury" is slowing me down here. :P
Scooter: OH YOUR LIFE IS SO HARD, YOU AND YOUR FIFTY CITIES
Lewwyn: lol
Commodore: #REXypeopleproblems
Elimist: corporations are permitted?
Commodore: Yep
HRE HRE HRE
Seriously, rathus-corps are nuts
Scooter: plzplzplz
plzplzplz
Lewwyn: corporations oh man
okay
Elimist: one problem with HRE
mysticism + hunting
Scooter: smackdown will definitely go leader-leader IMO
Lewwyn: I can get behind that maybe
Pindicator: yeah, we probably take an Agr/Wheel civ to pair with it
Commodore: Yeah, normally, its their Achilles' heel
Scooter: the other two picked... bismarck and huayna. not natural HRE synergy. so i'm hoping
Lewwyn: no fishing?
Elimist: if we take Ag/wheel then we skip fishing...
Pindicator: oh yeah...
still
Elimist: but fishing is cheap
Commodore: Paired with China, Dutch, or Ag/Wheel
Elimist: how fast can we get fishing
Lewwyn: yeah but that start is so important
Pindicator: I'd still take Agr/Wheel and tech fishing first
maybe
that worked for me in 45
Lewwyn: and you guys just convinced me WB first is bets
Commodore: Or even one of the Fishing/Mining
Elimist: well by the time we get to pick again, i expect taht at least 2 of our opponents will have both their leaders
Commodore: Agriculture first, then AH with double pre-req
Pindicator: oh, well wb first then we'll take Rome or Carthage to pair with Joao
Commodore: Or ignore rice, AH and BW
No England love for a funder?
Pindicator: oh yeah, england is better
Lewwyn: dutch is fishing agr
Elimist: too many civs
Lewwyn: so HRE and dutch
Pindicator: let's pick 4 civs
Lewwyn: would work
Elimist: er
Pindicator: j/k
Elimist: i thought we wanted darius dutch or darius HRE
darius can't do both
Lewwyn:
Elimist: unless we just pick darius again
that could work
Scooter: do we at least agree if hre is there at 8-9, we take that no matter what?
Pindicator: lol
Elimist: traits can be doubled right?
Lewwyn: how about darius's little sister daria
Elimist: so we double both traits
Lewwyn: lol
Pindicator: someone wake mackoti & krill up - that team needs to decide
Elimist: do we want any early wonders at all?
Pindicator: probably not with 2 IND civs already taken
Lewwyn: everyones going for mids
I think maybe we just build more settlers and workers
Elimist: think we could grab oracle?
Pindicator: joao joao joao joao joao joao
Lewwyn: is it worth it on quick speed
I mean?
Elimist: in 21 we beat an IND team to the oracle without being IND
Lewwyn: denial maybe
Elimist: early code of laws
Lewwyn: >_>
Elimist: the whole reason we'd pick HRE
Lewwyn: can we get the techs for it
Pindicator: i thought it was the landschneckts
honestly, i expect one of the IND teams to pick a combinatino of myst/mining and aim for oracle
Commodore: CoL beeline is good, but Oracling MC would be hard enough
Scooter: well, i bet bismarck gets paired with hannibal
and they get henge
Commodore: Getting Writing in that time frame?
Lewwyn: yeah I just don't think it happens
Elimist: i think it's interesting that bismark was picked before huayna
i'm not sure why they'd do that
Lewwyn: bismark's strong yo
Elimist: except maybe hannibal
Scooter: well bismarck is the fastest way to get henge usually
Commodore: Exp/Ind for fastest possible 'henge
Elimist: yeah bismark is but FIN
Scooter: or any early wonder
Commodore: Serdoa's advice?
Scooter: probably
Lewwyn: grrr serdoa
Commodore: Yeah
Lewwyn: if we get HRE
Commodore: H-club needs to listen to CFCJester!
Lewwyn: I still want a fishing civ
Elimist: EXP seems a bit weaker though when neither start can work 4 hammers from the start unless they move off the plains hill
Pindicator: and a fast civ
joao of england :P
Elimist: that seems by design
both PH starts being forested too
Lewwyn: and its possible we could tech agr or wheel before the worker comes out
Commodore: Plako said he's moving woods to the plains on 4-2
Elimist: ah clearly i don't read enough
Commodore: Yeah, Exp is buffed by the plains forest.
Lewwyn: so HRE is hunting and myst. I think we should get at least fishing + either agr or wheel
Elimist: how many turns would it take us to research fishing
Lewwyn: each turn is a delay on the WB though
and a delay on pop 2
Elimist: yeah but that's not automatically bad
Commodore: 1.75ish for immortal/large?
Elimist: or is it
Lewwyn: its a huge loss IMO
Elimist: worker first is that bad in comparison?
Lewwyn: after simming it, yeah
Elimist: meh
let's see
america, fishing agg
carthage, fishing mining
UK, fishing mining
japan fishing wheel
Lewwyn: mining is cheap
agr and wheel are more expensive
Commodore: Well, going Agri->BW is fine
Elimist: native america fishing agri
Commodore: Joao or Vicky want the sheep mined anyway
Pindicator: Vicky may want it pastured
if it's riverside
Commodore: It is
Elimist: dutch fishing agri, skipping a couple more mining civs
Commodore: But +1h vs. +2c
Pindicator: situational 1h vs 2c
Lewwyn: use this:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/referenc...r_bts.html
drop down tech:fishing
Pindicator: america!
Lewwyn: I agree with mining sheep until later
Elimist: ah, i was using the BAT civpedia
Lewwyn: we can pasture it later
esp if joao
Commodore: Right
Elimist: shopping malls ftw
Lewwyn: :D
Elimist: how did that become our unique building though...
Lewwyn: lol no idea
Elimist: at least some of them make sense
like totem poles
or dikes
Commodore: America for the lulz would actually tempt me.
Lewwyn: one of these days I want Pericles of arabia
Pindicator: factory ub seems like it would be a better fit...
culture! i was thinking of that here
Lewwyn: I just think you could do awesome stuff with madrasses
Commodore: No kidding
Just note those techs now
Elimist: madrassas give extra culture and priest slots, right?
Commodore: Yeah
Lewwyn: stupid starting techs
darius of HRE and Pericles of arabia would be amazing
if only they had better start techs
Elimist: the unit support formula is still .24 right?
