RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

Well things are developing...

Dreylin,

Here is my thinking on where the players are located. Obviously, you are centrally placed with its pluses and minuses. Also, it appears that sooooo and mh got large tracks of land while the three in the South fight over what is available. I would prefer not to fight so I would like us to reach an understanding.

I also wanted to share my views on our competition ...

sooooo - a very strong technical player based on his reported RB games
mh - not sure, but I suspect that he knows what he is talking about - haven't read many of his reports (does he report much)
athlete - no idea at all
Dreylin - at the moment and based on my knowledge, I would put you in the same boat as mh - probably a bit stronger in this form of the game due to your pbem experience

I'll leave you to fill in your views about me - lol.

Ruff

I took quite a while to formulate my reply, but eventually ended up with:

Hey Ruff,

First off, things aren't quite as bad as you think as far as the map is concerned - I haven't followed up the Eastern side of the water yet, but I've been all the way up the West so I'm reasonably confident it's roughly mirrored. Even so, it still means that mh & sooooo are able to settle towards the rest of us and safely back-fill later.

I would like to reach an understanding too ... but I'd like it to encompass more than an agreement about land rights.

You previously said "I don't think that either of us wants a full on alliance at this stage - the game is just too new and no cliques have developed that need countering."

Well someone has to form the first clique...

Dreylin.

So we'll see what happens.

I do still intend to reply to Dantski's questions specifically - though you can see some of the answers in this message to Ruff - but it'll probably be tomorrow....

[Dreylin]

Seems like I'm on the right track, if a little ahead of myself...

Dreylin,

That lake is good to know - thanks for the info.

Re cliques, the tech trades help start friendships. As do discussion regarding expectations - techs and general. Early days are difficult but I feel that we have reached an understanding of sorts. Do we trust each other - I would say NO. Are we being 100% truthful with each other - again, NO. Are we well on the way towards these goals - a definite YES to that one.

I would like to discuss an initial (loose) union of our two nations. A cooperation that helps both of us. A way that we could help each other. One item that I can help you with is by reducing your borders from a potential 4 to 3 (one of which would be mine). If our friendship continues as it has started, then you would only need to concentrate on your Western borders, leaving me to concentrate on Northern border. Would you be interested in that?

Cheers,

Ruff

Ruff,

Fair enough, let's keep dancing for a while....

A quick touch on the tech trade you suggested; Maths for Med, P-hood & Mono sounds like a good deal to me, and I'm prepared to use ink on this one! 8-)

Seems like you're setting up for a bulb of Theology...?

Regarding borders; I'm guessing you have a proposal regarding settlement in the valley to the East of Edirne? (I named it Death Valley after my returning Scout discovered two Lions and a Bear on adjacent tiles ... sad to say he didn't make it home.) That area is definitely set up to be contentious, so I'm intrigued to hear what you have to say.

Two random questions (feel free to answer, or not):

Did you really mean the e-mail subject to be "Mega-Gaming" or is it a typo of "Meta-Gaming"?

Founder's Folly? You think you made a mistake, or because of what you've built? 9-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly

Dreylin II.

I nearly used the below, but decided that he's right that we're not being 100% honest at this point - I'm not convinced that he doesn't know where sooooo is yet.

Regarding borders; I'm guessing you have a proposal regarding settlement in the valley to the East of Edirne? (I named it Death Valley after my returning Scout discovered two Lions and a Bear on adjacent tiles ... sad to say he didn't make it home.) I'm happy to listen to your suggestion - as it has potential to be a contentious area - but unfortunately I think it unlikely to achieve the stated goal of reducing my borders. (More free map info alert!) There is probably a route to sooooo's lands to the North of Edirne - if you wanted to investigate, head NE from Ankara.

[Dreylin]

Dreylin,

"Seems like you're setting up for a bulb of Theology...?"

Oh - I hadn't seen that opportunity. Good idea. Something to look at.

"Did you really mean the e-mail subject to be "Mega-Gaming" or is it a typo of "Meta-Gaming"?"

Yes - of course. My written life is one huge typo.

Founder's Folly? You think you made a mistake, or because of what you've built?

I was discussing my initial settlement placement and an option I looked at on turn 5 or so. I also threw the naming of cities, units, etc open to the board and someone suggested FF in light of my earlier discussions. Unfortunately, no one has suggested 'Sullla's Bane' for my opening warrior yet.

Your "Death Valley" - is that the area North of the 2 spices? Well, pretty simple really - if I settle there, I think that blocks sooooo off from you (and you off from sooooo).

Ruff

Ruff,

Well if you like, I could swing by your forum and volunteer the name for you. 9-)

Yep, that's Death Valley. I had been contemplating founding a blocking city at the mouth of the valley (1W of the Southern Spices), while I'm sure you are eyeing a Corn/Spices city.

How about this: You found 1NW of the Corn (grabbing 3FP, Corn & Northern Spices) I found SW, S of the Southern Spice.

This way we both get one of the two Spices in our second rings, and shouldn't have problems keeping them within our respective borders. (though I would suggest a gentleman's agreement that should our border expansions claim the other's resource, we gift it until such time as borders re-align)

How does that sound to you?

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

Reply from Ruff:

Dreylin,

An interesting compromise - but does that block you off from sooooo?

FYI - just in case you haven't mapped this part yet ...I have been all the way up the straight mountain range running North from your Gems city and it is blocked from sooooo by mountains and a lake.

How about I leave the area South of the mountain Range E of Gems city free of cities for you and I found 2Spice, Corn city. Effectively, I would not found a city that has any claim to tiles anywhere South of 2Spice, Corn city. Would that be adequate compensation for missing out on that blocking mountain range? Also, 2Spice, Corn city fits very nicely with my existing dot mapping <grin>.

Also, I would perma-gift you one of the spices when connected and (God forbid) if one of them got pillaged, it would be mine first.

Ruff

and then we had a long chat...

[Dreylin]

No, I'm not going to condition it.

09:07 Ruff.Hi: you there?
09:09 me: Yeah
Good morning
09:10 Ruff.Hi: hi
I think there are areas of the map that we have both mapped
09:11 how do you feel about sharing (limited!) maps so that we confirm we are discussing the same area
me: Certainly
Ruff.Hi: or should we wait for paper?
me: "Certainly" to the first question
actually not a question
Anyhooo
Not sure
Ruff.Hi: lol
09:12 ok - lets leave it as text descriptions then
just sending you a reply to your suggestion
me: I tend to feel it's better left until Paper
though that is limiting
But I think we're both familiar enough with that area
to discuss in text
09:13 Ruff.Hi: ok
sending email now
me: Will I like it?
Ruff.Hi: oh ... and 127 v 122!!!
09:19 me: Not sure I understand that?
09:20 Ruff.Hi: the 122 v 127?
me: yeah
Ruff.Hi: posts on board!
me: Aha
Ruff.Hi: didn't you say we had a competition?
me: Well whil we're talking we accumulate at the same rate, I guss
Ruff.Hi: and no spamming just for post count!!
09:21 me: Plus you're going to gain one when someone suggests Sullla's Bane

Ruff.Hi: lol
did you tell me to look harder for my pre-calendar happy resource?
me: Yep
Found ?
09:22 Ruff.Hi: well, I found it
me: lol
Ruff.Hi: yes - but it is a major gripe against the MapMaker
me: Ah
Ruff.Hi: you will just have to wait until we share maps
me: inconviniently placed?
Ruff.Hi: a little
me: Well there's no shortage of awkwardness of placement over my side
09:23 my Horses are 2SE of my Capital....
Ruff.Hi: yes - the map script put a 1 tile fresh water lake right where I want to put a city!!
me: so will never be worked
Hah
Ruff.Hi: cannot blaim that on Sulllla - just the script
09:24 so - you founded in the wrong place too
me: I didn't move
You?
Ruff.Hi: in place
but then with 2nd thoughts about 5 turns in
me: Ah
Ruff.Hi: as I said in email
me: Yep
Ruff.Hi: anyway - read my crash hot suggestion and I will go put coffee on
09:25 me: Well of course I didn't know about the Horses
Have read
Clarification: which side of the mountains?
Ruff.Hi: what? you didn't see these enormous animals running around?
me: did you head up?
Strangely not.
Ruff.Hi: which mountains are we talking about
09:26 me: The "Ruler Range" - N of Edirne
Ruff.Hi: ok - ruler range!
me: You said sooooo wasblocked
Ruff.Hi: the single row of mountains running due North from your gems city
me: (it's long and mostly straight)
Yeah, which side did you go up?
09:27 Ruff.Hi: above that is a lake and the land is topped by another row of single tile mountains
West!
me: Aha
Ruff.Hi: have scout slowly making his way back South to unblock himself
me: Interesting
I only got as fr as the Sheep
was thinking maybe sooooo had an outlet that way
09:28 (probably by water)
Ruff.Hi: ahh - that is why you missed the hut up there
I was very very surprised to find a hut on T38 or so!!
me: Ah, that's the one you meant
Heh
09:29 So your suggestion
I do think my compromise blocks sooooo after we pop borders
however, where do you consider 2Spices, Corn city to be?
09:30 1W of Corn, or 1E of Spices
?
Ruff.Hi: I currently have it 1NE of N spice
09:31 me: Which gets you the 4th FP
Ruff.Hi: you will not share any borders with sooooo under that city placement
me: I see
Ruff.Hi: FP 1 W of N spice?
pretty hard for you to work that with your place ment of Gems city
me: Yeah
09:32 Ruff.Hi: actually - thinking about what you said early - sooooo could sail around to you - assuming that the middle lake you mentioned is navigationable
09:33 me: Well it's all salt
if it loops around
but I'd be less afraid of a naval invasion
Ruff.Hi: yeah - tough to pull off
09:34 me: So you mention leaving me the space S of the mountains from Death Valley
How thoroughlyhe you explored it?
stoopid gmail chat
Ruff.Hi: totally - looking at a pic now
09:35 me: Aha
So you'r ceding me the Incense
Ruff.Hi: yes
how far E have you come in there?
me: That was the route I went toreach you
so I kno you'llbe founding at the otherend of the valley
09:36 Ruff.Hi: ok, so you know about the double range of mountains on the S of Death valley
me: I don't think I hit th keys hard enough.
Yeah
There's no food, is there?
Ruff.Hi: there are 2 single mountains 1 tile NE of spice ... running EW
09:37 me: until you get out the far end
Ruff.Hi: , I am looking at founding 3 tiles E of teh Eastern one of those 2 mountains
me: Or near end to you
Ruff.Hi: no - no food. To be honest, my part of the map only has 4 food resources
09:38 me: Ouch
Ruff.Hi: well - not counting sugar
me: You sure you'velooked hard enough
Ruff.Hi: good point
I will look again
09:39 me: So you'd be planning to found something for th Sugar & Copper?
Ruff.Hi: yes - 1 tile E of copper
me: and the rest of the valleywould be mine?
Ruff.Hi: the rest of the WEST would be for you
me: such as it is
Yes, of course
09:40 not E of the Copper
Ruff.Hi: no - that wouldn
t make a lot of sense :D
me: indeed
it's probably crappy land anyway.
09:41 Ruff.Hi: well - yes - not crash hot land
but a few grassland plains and grassland hills
enough forests to chop the Taj Mahal
me: lol
09:42 That would mean I get the Mausolleum....
Ruff.Hi: hey - the turn rolled over
did PAL get a shot of $?
09:43 me: dunno
Ruff.Hi: hey - do you have copper
?
me: not yet
09:44 but I will
Ruff.Hi: but you see it near you
ok
me: yep
Is thatone yours?
Ruff.Hi: and we are starting to get barb activity
me: or do you have a closer one
Ruff.Hi: I want to wack some to open up the Heroic Epic
09:45 but they are running away from my Great Wall
me: You've seen the barb city near me?
Aha
Ruff.Hi: to your W - I am avoiding that
me: Dreadful for my dotmap
Ruff.Hi: guess you have to raze it
09:46 me: Well the cash will help
BTW, sooooo has his Copper connected
Ruff.Hi: if I cannot find enough barbs to open up HE, can I propose a truely wacky suggestion?
how do you know that?
me: Phalanx
Ruff.Hi: you have seen one already!
me: in Death Valley
Ruff.Hi: holy cow - that guy is quick
me: Have a Warrior wandering that way
09:47 Ruff.Hi: thx for that warning - I will get an axe out of my capital
so - yes - I do have another source of copper and it is connected
me: Aha
09:48 Ruff.Hi: so - wacky suggestion if I cannot open up the HE ...
if I am (say) 4 XPs short
me: I take city
lend you unit?
Ruff.Hi: can I gift you 4 warriors, declare war and then kill those 4 warriors?
me: Or youcme help out?
Ruff.Hi: and we can swap it around too
me: Well
09:49 there are Trade routes to consider
Ruff.Hi: but only for 10 turns - but YES
would be good if we were both short some XPs
me: but it also re-sets Peace bonus
Ruff.Hi: then trade route loss would be balance dby us gaining HE
true
anyway - long way off
09:50 lets just make sure we kill enough barbs
me: Or at least one o us anyway
Then we can work out a deal to lend the unit
(does that work?)
Ruff.Hi: oh - forgot that you can lend the 10XP unit
very good point!!
yes - I have done that in another team PBEM game
09:51 in that case - we could shepard barbs to the one that is closest
'you take him, no, really - you kill him"
me: Heh
I should get a good start with the barb city
Ruff.Hi: true
09:52 ok - now I really need some coffee
me: Heh
Ruff.Hi: will check back for an emial later ????
me: I'm going back to SPARTA!
Yep

[Dreylin]

A very profitable chat imo. Some info exchanged - I think we both learned a couple of things, and came out with a decent agreement.

Ruff,

I agree to your suggested location (1NE of Northern Spices) with the discussed conditions (perma-gift of Spices & freedom to claim the Incense S of the mountain). One additional condition: since you've turned city naming over to the masses, I request you call the city Death Valley. 9-)

Cheers,

Dreylin.

That leaves me free to concentrate on settling my Western borders ASAP.

[Dreylin]

t43 - Start by accepting Open Borders with Ruff. His Scout is just North of Edirne and on 0.1/1 maybe he'll stay a while to heal. Edirne's borders have expanded, so Daisy starts Mining the Gems (3t + 1t road). Edirne whips it's MP Warrior since it will grow into unhappiness next turn otherwise. Overflow will finish the Monument, then start on Library.

Mike starts chop at Istanbul, Tim finishes Pasturising Cows. Wanderer finds a Roading Worker at the edge of sooooo's lands ... Ruff might be in for a race.

[Dreylin]

Note to Ruff:

Hey Ruff,

Just a quick (loaded) question: what's your timing on settling Death Valley?

Sooooo has a Worker roading in that direction...

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

Ruff's getting worried:

Dreylin,

I just checked in my world builder version of the game and with suitably placed roads, I think I can have a settler in position in 7 turns after finishing him. I'll have to send some military too, so it might take slightly longer than that - going to have to apply the whip.

This is going to be close. I wonder if sooooo will declare on me?

ruff

And later:

Another reply ...

I can have a settler in the area 2 tiles NE of the Death Valley (3 tiles NE of Northern Spice) in 9 turns. This is the best I can do. I can see that tile (it is a plains hill) but that is as far North as I have mapped. I will try and run my returning scout(s) up there to map it out, but is there a good city location that blocks sooooo that you can see?

I will also be looking at my cities to see how many units I can send along to hold that site - I am pretty sure that this will annoy sooooo a little.

Ruff

[Dreylin]

Ruff,

Using the Northern Spices as reference, sooooo will finish a road next turn on a flatland forest tile 4E, 6N.

That tile is in his borders - the SSW corner of a BFC. It's had a border pop, but I don't know if it's his Capital or a blocker city.

It's a pretty hilly area, but the best place to put a defensive blocker would be either 1N or the spot you suggested, or 1NE - i.e. 4NE of the Spices - both hills that overlook flatland. The first would have a single tile border fight, the Eastern of the two would overlap 2t. The absolute best place for an offensive blocker would be the hill 3E, 5N of the Spices - i.e. 1tile SW of the roading Worker & thus sooooo's borders. That, I'm sure would piss him off. Of the three, only the 4NE blocks him completely before border pop.

The only resource in the area is Copper 5E, 4N from Spices.

If soooooo grants me open borders next turn, I should be able to give you more info.

Dreylin.