RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

Excellent news from Athlete:

Dreylin,

Just logged in & saw 8 turns left so at this point I will not be switching.

Sorry :-(

Athlete

Now to work out what sort of deal I can line up with him and at the same time with sooooo:

Athlete,

Don't apologise, that's great news! 8-)

I was worried about waiting maybe 12t, but 8t is pretty-much in line with my research time so now we just need to agree a trade! You have previously mentioned:

Aesthetics
HBR + kicker

as options (I took out Alpha, since I know that's being researched elsewhere). What would you think of the following two additional potentials:

Iron Working + Monotheism
Metal Casting (with additional consideration from your side)

Let me know your thoughts and hopefully we can ink something in before the end of the week.

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

So no mention of how or whom he has lined up his Monarchy deal with:

Yes, it would be a duplication as I will not be able to do a monarchy-alphabet trade with you. I'm not that sure what "it may just come down to what is necessary to secure Monarchy for myself" really means, could you elaborate? Are we talking Oracle here? I'll tell you now that I'm not going for the oracle.

Anything you tell me I'll keep under my chest, so if you want to tell me what techs you have and what you are researching then maybe we can strike a deal. Myself, I have agri, fishing, wheel, mining, bw, ah, writing and am researching alpha (due in 10).

Regarding open borders: I'll accept. Your scout can pass through my lands but make sure you give him a woolly coat and some snowshoes.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, I have masonry too.

but some interesting information none the less ... maybe I'll be able to parlay my Religious line into another 2nd-tier tech!

sooooo,

Oracle? No, all I meant was that I'd need to work out a trade with whomever was researching Monarchy, and that was probably how I would determine what to research next.

Currently it's looking like either Aesthetics or HBR+kicker, but it sounds like you need to get hold of some of the pre-reqs in order for your Monarchy deal to go ahead ... as you know, I have through to Monotheism, so maybe we could swing a deal involving some of the Religious path?

Other than that I pretty-much have the same tech as you, though I'm not due to hit Writing until next turn.

Got your latest message with the chat address; I'm on MSN unreliably on evenings & weekends, and my address is: EDITTED
(needless to say I will not be posting either address in the forum)

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

Intrigue & plotting....

Dreylin,

Have you been talking to sooooo - I think someone has. He IM'd me via yahoo to talk about a border agreement. Damn this game being paused for a week - now he has more than enough time to react - 8 turns to get a settler in position. Hopefully, he is busy doing other stuff and thinks he has time. I will have to tread very carefully here.

I am going to tell you that you and I are currently arguing over the area and see if I can swing that mountain range with the copper (did it have any food resources) as a DMZ.

Ruff

sooooo: Hello Ruff
ruff_hi: hi sooooo - cannot talk now - jobs in backyard to do! and then BBQ lunch
ruff_hi: will be back later
sooooo: ok, sure
ruff_hi: what did you want to discuss?
sooooo: hello
sooooo: are you back from your bbq?
sooooo: I'm slightly embarrassed to say this .... but I wanted to discuss a settling agreement. I know, I know, templars etc etc
ruff_hi: seems fair on this map
sooooo: it seems to be 3rd settler time probably
ruff_hi: no - just inbetween jobs at the moment
ruff_hi: feel free to dump here and I will respond when I can
sooooo: the problem as i see it is that there's a big valley equidistant between our capitals
ruff_hi: or we can push it all off and have a chat this afternoon (3 or 4hrs?, maybe more)
sooooo: I don't mind either way
sooooo: if we don't have discussion, then whoever settles in that valley could block off the other player
sooooo: then the other player would probably be forced to DoW on the other
sooooo: and the whole of the early game is a military arms race and we'd both lose to mostly harmless
ruff_hi: sooooo - it will be lots more than 3-4 hrs
ruff_hi: movie this afternoon - let me send you an email about this
ruff_hi: can I post this conv to the web?
sooooo: ok, sure.
sooooo: yep.

Ruff actually started a chat with me while I was writing the last paragraph, so I sent it off without addressing his suggestion for collusion:

Hey Ruff,

Veeery Eeeeenteresting.

I've swapped a couple of messages with sooooo over the last couple of days, but it's been almost completely focused on Tech. There was a vague suggestion at the beginning about both sharing borders with you and cooperation being to our benefit, but I didn't respond to that point and we've not discussed it since.

The interesting thing was that he has indicated that he has a deal already in place for Monarchy, which puzzled me since he's only met you and I so far. I asked him who that was with, but he then chose not to reply to that question.

I've also been talking a bit with athlete; he is researching Monarchy, but then indicated that Alphabet would be an acceptable trade option from my POV, so I'm really rather confused. Mostly I'm trying to reconcile their respective desires so I research a tech they both want ... in that respect, the week off is really working in my favour!

The area NE of Death Valley (the city) is mostly hills; there's a double/trebble diagonal line of them of different terrain types before the land flattens into sooooo's borders. The only resource I've seen so far is the Copper, and with no food it's not a particularly appealing location unless you settle to pick up a couple of DV's Floodplains.

TBH the hill city is not a great city location other than as a blocker for sooooo, and that is pretty-much accomplished by DV - which is a fantastic city spot. There is also space for a decent city North of DV at the end of the river on the coast; that would fight for the odd tile with DV. I'm not sure if you'll pursuade sooooo to hold back from expanding South though, he has indicated that there's snowy terrain up North.

Dreylin.

Now I'm sitting in chat waiting for him to come back...

[kalin]

Hi,

I am following the game and your thread in particular with a lot of interest. Thanks for all the details you are putting in! I was curious if you had some more thoughts about your western border given that some agreement was reached for your eastern one. For example, what are cities are you planning next? Is it still the clam/sheep city up north?

Best,
K

[Dreylin]

Hey Kalin,

I'll be revisiting my dotmap sometime this week ... I planned to have done so already, but my time has been sucked up by the furious diplomacy which seemed to consume most of the weekend.

A couple more thoughts I've been having:

My "pants-down" military is starting to get me a bit worried - particularly knowing about the likely build-up of forces to the East if Ruff & sooooo do go head-to-head. I am thinking about putting the overflow from the MP Warrior in Edirne into a Chariot, rather than using it to finish off the Monument and then go to a Library. That gives me a semblance of defense for when sooooo's Phalanx arrives.

Chariots are not going to be sufficient though for very long, so I'm wondering which way to go next for my military. Basically, my four choices are:

Settle the Copper city - not high on my priority list, requires IW to "release" the food resources, needs a border pop to reach the Copper.

Research Iron Working and then hope to find it in my borders - there's a promising clear spot 1NE of Istanbul which likely holds a resource, but there's no guarantee I'll find Iron within my borders and then I'm left with the same problem as Copper.

Research Horseback Riding - Horses are already hooked up, so no time delay involved, however that would mean no diversity in my military leaving me vulnerable to Spears.

EDIT: duh, Horse Archers require Archery....!

Research Archery - fastest & cheapest option and also doesn't leave me wanting to get trade value from a more-expensive military tech, that I may not want to trade. OTOH, if I grab Archery, that makes it more likely that the Barbs will start turning up with Archers that I'd have to deal with.

Actually, maybe I should go for Archery next (it may only be a 1t build with the overflow from Writing) and rather than build a Chariot at Edirne, instead put out an Archer. Hmmmm, this writing down stuff is proving useful!


I also wanted to touch on the tech situation briefly. If Ruff & sooooo are both to be taken at face value, then it seems like I might be a couple of minor techs ahead of both. Of course they've had Writing for longer so they might be getting Libraries up soon, but I've got a third city out (with trade routes) and am about to hook up the Gems for another big boost.

My early scouting has something to do with it, as I've probably burned through ~50g of deficit research already and still have 170+ in the bank (currently at -5gpt at 100%). Ruff likely has his Prophet settled now though, so is probably making money even at 100%.

The trade I have set up with Ruff will just require a couple of turns to grab Meditation, and otherwise is filled out by "minor" techs. If I can swing even a partially similar deal with sooooo then I will be very happy to have grabbed two "tier2" techs with minors. Of course I'd also like to avoid trading any military techs away, but it may come down to that - we'll see what athlete & sooooo say when they reply.

athlete is a bit difficult to assess at the moment; I get the impression he's a minor tech or two down, and his 8t remaining on Monarchy suggest he may be a bit behind technologically. From what I can gather from his reports, he's also the least experienced.

The wildcard is of course mh, who is not around for this flurry, and that may well be hurting his near-term prospects. We are all working out our deals without his input, so when he gets back it's going to be important to re-engage and try to get him on-side.

I am slightly concerned that if I do pull off the Oracle build, coupled with my currently seemingly superior tech rate I end up with a big old target painted on me ... but I guess that's better than being Templars.

[Dreylin]

Urg, how to record the latest set of interchanged exchanges!?

So after sending the last message to Ruff, I sat a waited to chat, but we didn't get much accomplished:

Ruff.Hi: I am. Just read your email
Not too sure where sooooo is heading in the South, apart from blocking us off from his North. The thing is, I am pretty sure he also has W and E of his capital - I don't ahve any North

me: Yeah I saw your big Salt Lake
I would also guess he can sail around the edge as well
I doubt Sullla would have left him with only one exit

Basically we just didn't intersect then, but managed a chat last evening:

Ruff.Hi: you there?

me: Yep

Ruff.Hi: just writing email to soooo re DV
I am telling him that we are currently still negotiating DV

me: Fair enough

Ruff.Hi: he mentioned that this valley was equal distance between him and me (sort of like cape town)

me: heh

Ruff.Hi: I said it was actually yours as it is much much closer to you
I am now telling him that I ahve to expand W because I have no other place to go
I will also mention that he might have other land N, W, and E of his location and I am sending him v1 and v2 of those maps we did
you ok with all of that?

me: I think he's pretty well explored up there
Sure
He knows where Edirne is
his Scout died outside it's borders
so he knows roughly how far away I am

Ruff.Hi: roughly - but not enough to call me on it

me: although he hasn't seen myCapital yet

Ruff.Hi: and I actually think it is closer to your capital than to mine

me: I expect his halanx to get there in the next few turns

Ruff.Hi: where is that phalanx?
in relatino to the corn?

me: My guess is that it will reach the Spirces in the next 2-3t
assuming it's coming directly to my territory
I think that DV is pretty-much equidisant from our capitals
So he will probably reach Istanbul area in ~8t
He has said he will accepy OB
accept

Ruff.Hi: so he will not be in a position to say I lied for about 8 turns - perfect

me: give or take, yeah
You still aiming to get a true blocker down, or just go straight for DT?

Ruff.Hi: don't have to decide for 7 turns yet. Depends on how conversation with sooooo goes

me: sure

Ruff.Hi: pretty sure if I push him too hard, he will slap down a city in that DMZ
so I don't want to force that
neither do I particularly want to have to put a city there myself

me: sure

Ruff.Hi: ok - let me finish this email to sooooo

me: sure

At this point I started wondering if Ruff was playing me somehow, but to what end? It's too early, and he's too far away to run an effective back-stab on me. Maybe he's testing me on how far I'd go with sooooo - after all, he's going to be surrounded in that location. Of course it could just be translational difficulties ... English - Australian has always been a fraught relationship!

[Dreylin]

And then I woke up this morning to an e-mail from sooooo:

Hi Dreylin,

I don't really want to "trade down", ie give up alphabet for multiple lower techs. I'd be happy to sort out a deal for HBR or aesthetics though.

By the way, can you clarify how you want our civs' relationship to proceed? I think you've probably given Ruff a screenshot of my lands since he has been talking about a worker that I think only you can see. Not that I really mind that, but I'd like you to tell me your intentions and how you forsee our relationship in the future. Ruff also threatened me by saying he'd easily be able to persuade you not trade with me. When I saw the start positions I thought it only natural for your civ and mine to cooperate since we probably won't share a border. If you're cozying up with Ruff then that's not a problem for me - I have been talking to him about the clearing/valley that's between our two capitals. Since that area blocks off both of our expansion we've been negotiating a compromise. Hopefully everything will work out peacefully for all our 3 civs.

sooooo

Oh great; seems like Ruff's landed me in it a bit here, how on earth am I going to handle this!? First things first, I bang off a quick message to Ruff to see what he has to say:

Ruff,

Just received an e-mail from sooooo and I want to get on the same page with you before replying. He mentions that you referred to the Worker on his borders, and has inferred that we are talking. I can say that I might have mentioned the Worker to you as part of our negotiations to lean on you to resolve things faster...?

TBH, the arrangement we made suits me regarding Death Valley, and it's really up to you how we deal with sooooo. However the less truth we tell, the more likely he is to think that something's up....

Dreylin II.

And then I left for work hoping Ruff would reply.

[Dreylin]

Ruff replied with the following:

Dreylin,

Thanks for emailing. I went back and forth about including that worker comment. I hope that this hasn't dumped you in the poo with this. I also realize that I haven't told him about our agreement - I am planning on sending an email to sooooo this afternoon (see below).

sooooo,

Dreylin and I have just reached an agreement regarding the corn, spice, floodplain valley in question - to be honest, we reached this agreement late last week and I didn't want to tip this information to you without knowing more of your plans regarding this valley (sorry about the white lie :D).

He has agreed to seed me the corn site in return for me seeding him the incense land (South of a double row of peaks that is the Southern border of the 'valley') plus a perma-trade of the spice. The actual city location Dreylin and I have agreed on is 1NE of the Northern Spice.

So, as you can see, this is a city site that I have already traded land for.

From reading you message above - I take it that you are suggesting I also take the spices / corn site. Maybe not the exact tile that Dreylin and I have agreed on, but in that general location.

As you said, there isn't much room in this valley for another city, but are you talking about settling in the NW or the NE of this valley (btw, Dreylin has dubbed this valley 'Death Valley' and I am using it for ease of communication).

If we can get this agreement inked, then I would be happy with a NAP and a free passage deal through the valley.

Ruff

Are you comfortable with that? The problem is that I haven't actually mapped the northern part of DV and so I talking blind. How do you feel about sending me a small pic of just that area (or a good description) similar to the description I gave you of the northern part of that blocked valley.

Ruff

On reading this my thoughts were that I wasn't too comfortable with him saying that the deal has been in place since last week as that's quite a bit of time to have elapsed in this diplomatic environment. The mention of the NAP & free-passage deal I guess isn't surprising, but I'll need to get some more information on that eventually from Ruff.

The general tone is actually a lot lighter than I'd expected, since sooooo claimed Ruff had threatened him with convincing me not to trade. I wonder if sooooo slipped that in as a test of our relationship ... or maybe Ruff did?

Argh, I hate trying to work out this diplomacy stuff!

Anyway, my priority at this point was to get a quick reply off to sooooo to minimise the impression that Ruff & I were colluding:

sooooo,

I'm sure you've gathered from the spiralling post counts in the forums that Ruff and I have been engaged in a flurry of diplomacy regarding that same valley (I dubbed it Death Valley since I had a Scout eaten there by a Bear & 2 Lions, but now I'm wondering if it's not going to be a prophetic name!). We've been discussing the area for a while, and I have to admit that I mentioned the presence of your Worker in the vicinity in an attempt to hurry him into an agreement with maybe more concessions than he'd planned.

My diplomatic effort has certainly been concentrated on Ruff so far, maybe to the neglect of our mutual relationship, but I felt that in my position it is important for me to secure at least one of my borders fairly quickly since I'm expecting to have as many as four. He certainly overstated our relationship if he gave you the impression I could be "bought off" from trading with you.

I was expecting us to share a border to my NE (your W), but Ruff indicated that you were most likely cut off in that direction. If that's the case and we're completely separated by Ruff, then it makes sense for us to cooperate technologically.

Dreylin II.

So you can see that I've played it as diplomacy to secure my border, explained away the mention of the Worker as having been used as a bargaining tool, and brushed off the accusation that I would be willing to sever ties at this point.

I also sent me message to Ruff with the following cover:

Ruff,

Here's the message I just sent:

See Above

Not sure about your comment that the agreement has been in place since last week - maybe "over the weekend"?

There is definitely space in the NW of the valley for a nice coastal river city - though it will fight for 1tile with the DV location. There is also /space/ for a city in the NE, but it's all hills. If you moved the city back 1E (my original suggestion) you would lose the additional FP, but there would be no border fight with the NW location. May be a negotiating point.

Dreylin II.

I'm sure I've given him the details of the rest of the valley previously, but he asked for them again....

[regoarrarr]

So in the secrecy of your own private thread, which direction are you leaning? To ally with ruff vs. soooo, the reverse, or hoping to stay out of it?

[Fenton Denton Smith]

So in the secrecy of your own private thread, which direction are you leaning? To ally with ruff vs. soooo, the reverse, or hoping to stay out of it?

Nice question!