RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

A busy morning in diplomatic circles:

Ah, so now I can congratulate you on getting oracle.

Alpha could be either T152 or T153, depending on which tiles I work. Will get you an updated eta at around t150.

By the way, what are you planning to take with the oracle? Maybe that tech would be better for me than HBR.

sooooo

Yeah, I wondered when you were going to ask that...

Most likely (unless I have a last-minute change of mind) is Code of Laws, despite it making me feel far too much like Templars' attempt to grab all the religions! I have a feeling that might be more appealing to you than HBR, yes?

If you were interested, how would you suggest we compensate for the beaker difference?

BTW, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about signing a NAP with me? I know we don't currently share a border, but I'm sure we both have ROP deals with Ruff for Death Valley and having spotted your Phalanx on the border while I'm defending with Warriors, it would certainly make me feel a little more secure!

Hello Dreylin,

Yes, CoL would be nice. The beaker difference would be 50 beakers on normal speed. I can offer fishing? Not sure if you have that already.

A NAP is fine by me. I can understand you being nervous when I have a phalanx acting as a scout . Shall we say that the notice of cancellation is 10 turns and our minimum NAP is 30 turns?

sooooo

Noitce that he's offering only a 10t cancellation period rather than the 15t he has with Ruff. That actually suits me, as it gives more flexibility.

sooooo,

I actually got "lucky" with a Hut and picked up Fishing earlier. Have you thought what you will research after Alphabet, and will you need any of the Religious pre-reqs in order to grab Monarchy / CoL?

If you went IW next, the following deal would be roughly equal:

You: Alphabet & IW
Me: CoL, Poly & P-hood (could sub in Med or Mono if you have Poly)

I'd be prepared to front the techs I have and wait for you to complete IW.

NAP terms sound good; any notification of cancellation to be sent in-game (to ensure delivery) with detail of first turn of attack availability. i.e. "I wish to cancel our NAP; per the agreement, I will not attack before turn X"

Cancellation clause installed as per same agreement with Ruff, and a suggestion of a deal that would equalise the beakers.

I'm probably not going to go for IW next since I have copper and no jungle (I'm in the tundra quarter).

Think I'll go aesthetics after alpha.

Perhaps we could set up a trade of CoL for alpha in 4/5 turns then in the future I trade aesthetics for HBR. The total beaker count for that is equal.

Agree with the NAP terms. It's a deal.

sooooo

By this time I actually knew he was planning Aesthetics from my conversation with Ruff (to be added), and his suggestion works well for equalising the beakers.

sooooo,

The trade sounds good apart from the "then in the future" line. I realise you don't have an estimate yet of when you'll complete Aesthetics, but I'd like us to agree to do the trade the turn you discover the tech. I am perfectly happy to agree to a no-build clause on the Wonder of your choice if you have any concerns over trading straight away.

As I say in the message, his timing is a little too open-ended for my liking; I doubt it's anything more than not knowing when Aesthetics research will be completed, but I do want the timing to be set before agreeing to the trade arrangement. The offer of a no-build clause is deliberately specific to a single Wonder only, since I don't really think that's a delaying tactic, but could make it look likely.

[Dreylin]

Looks like I have more sooooo to detail before I get to Ruff:

What I meant by that line was that we trade alpha for CoL once I get alpha, then we trade aesthetics for HBR once I get aesthetics. Is this not OK for you? I'd have thought that you'd want alpha asap so that you can start trading with other people. Exact timing of aesthetics will change since I may or may not be hiring some representation-fuelled scientists in the future

sooooo

sooooo,

That is perfectly fine by me; consider the agreement signed!

Sorry to be confusing, I just wanted to be certain that you weren't wanting/intending to delay the second part of the trade for some number of turns after you got Aesthetics in order to get a head-start on a Wonder build or something similar.

Dreylin II.

Excellent! <insert Mr. Burns Smilie here>

[Dreylin]

Conversations with Ruff:

Greetings Friend.

Congratulations on the Oracle. What tech did you take with it - if you don't mind me asking?

You'll notice my scouts heading East - I want to map out sooooo's territory so that I can counter his complaints about possible northern land quality. My 'Dead Man Walking' might make it through DV to the protection of sooooo's land - cross fingers.

Maths is about 5 or so turns away for me so that is about on schedule.

mh contacted me about techs - seems he is getting nothing for his Monarchy research - what a bummer of a time to go on vacation.

Ruff

Hey Ruff,

Thanks, it's been a bit of a Wonder-full turn with sooooo's Pyramids as well. I haven't actually taken the tech yet, but I'm 99% going to go CoL and give myself the Templars shivvers.

Good luck to DMW, I think sooooo and I cleared out the animals, but I guess it's about time Warriors & such started showing up. Maybe you can use him as a decoy to make sure the other guy gets through OK.

Sounds like you'll get Maths about the same time sooooo reaches Alphabet, so that should work out well. mh got in touch with me also, and I suspect I was the one who broke him the bad news about athlete going for Monarchy. I guess he'll still manage a trade with sooooo though; and have you committed to a Monarchy deal yet?

Dreylin II.

Dreylin,

I'm going to try and make an effort to answer all of your questions ... lets see how I go.

The Templar Shivvers? I am totally missing that reference. And wonders everywhere. Any guess what sooooo will use the GE for? He is philo so he should have one pretty quickly (quicker but with less certainty if he hires scientists).

COL ... nice selection. Guess that will put you 1 tech up on most people too. BTW - what are you currently researching? I'm trading for a bunch of old tech with you so you could be almost 2 techs up on me. Aggg - this is no good .

There are barb warriors around - DMW (and Live Man Walking - my other scout - I must rename them in game next time) are playing tag (marco polo?) with them.

I have a Monarchy trade set up with Athlete.

Re future tech direction, sooooo says he is going Aeth next. I discussed Calendar with you and that is most likely my next tech (after Maths)

Ruff

Lots of interesting info here. I haven't seen hide nor hair of Barb Warriors yet, so interesting to know they're about - good thing I'll have a couple of Chariots around shortly to deal with them. This is where I find out that sooooo is pursuing Aesth after Alpha, and that mh has only the potential of an Alpha deal lined up for Monarchy ... I wonder if he'll consider changing horses to something less pre-sold? Also, I think sooooo's target for his first GE is fairly obvious:

Ruff,

Templars shivvers: Confucianism would be my third religion, so I really appear to be being a bit of a hog in that respect. Fortunately, I think I'm a better player than the Templars team....

If you're right and sooooo is going Aesthetics next, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go straight to Literature after and "Engineer" the Great Library...

I have HBR due at around the same time as Maths/Alpha; after that I'm not sure. Once you get your next GP, I'm sure you'll get some trade value out of Theology.

Dreylin,

Arr - 3 headed hydro. And I am sure that you are correct about being a better player .

Good call re soooo - that is a strong play.

Ruff

[Dreylin]

Right, for those looking to keep track (me too!), let me summarise the tech situation:

On ~t52 I will discover Horseback Riding, at that point I will have all techs from the first three columns of the tree except for Sailing, and also have Writing. Conveniently, that is also the turn we expect Alpha to be released onto the scene. I have the following trades lined up for that turn:

Code of Laws to sooooo for Alphabet
Polytheism to Ruff for Sailing
Meditation, Monotheism & Priesthood to Ruff for Mathematics
Horseback Riding & Archery to Athlete for Monarchy

and I know of:
Ruff gives Maths to sooooo for Alpha
Ruff gives Maths to athlete for Monarchy(?)
(?)sooooo gives Alpha to mh for Monarchy(?)

If that is indeed how it falls out, I should end up sitting pretty at the top of the tech heap:

vs. sooooo: I'll be up HBR at the least, and probably several minor techs.
vs. Ruff: I'll be up HBR & CoL
vs. athlete: I'll be up CoL at the least, probably also Sailing(?)
vs. mh: I'll be up CoL & Maths, maybe some minors

I also know that Ruff will be researching Calendar next (I should try and pre-arrange a deal for CoL) and sooooo will be going for Aesthetics (which I will trade for HBR).

I am strongly considering going for Civil Service as my next tech. I'd really need to find someone to research Iron Working for me and probably encourage someone towards Currency; but MC and Construction are a bit meh at the moment, so why not make the reach while I still have techs in the bank for trading....

[kalin]

Hi,

Thanks for the detailed updates. Your plans seem to have come together quite nicely: the wonder, the trades etc.

I had a couple of questions:

* Aren't you a bit afraid that you may start looking too good? Also combined with your central position it may be a bit tricky. You secured to a certain extent your eastern border, but not your western. Even the NAPs in the east can go away in some 10-15 turns... How do you plan to deal with this?

* How do you see yourself going for victory in the game? Military, space ship, culture? I know it's a long time from now, but I am just curious about how these things unfold in MP.

Regarding techs, why Civil Service?

Thanks,
K

P.S.: I am glad my comments suggested a better city placement by the sugars

[Dreylin]

I had a couple of questions:

* Aren't you a bit afraid that you may start looking too good? Also combined with your central position it may be a bit tricky. You secured to a certain extent your eastern border, but not your western. Even the NAPs in the east can go away in some 10-15 turns... How do you plan to deal with this?

Yes, I am a bit afraid of looking "too good", though if sooooo does pull off GLib as well as Pyramids at least there will be someone else in that category. Don't forget that the NAPs in the East have a 30t minimum on them, so it will be t58 before Ruff could start to cancel, and t66 before sooooo could do the same. That means I have ~20t minimum to concentrate on securing my position to the West.

* How do you see yourself going for victory in the game? Military, space ship, culture? I know it's a long time from now, but I am just curious about how these things unfold in MP.

As far as victory conditions go, I can see bothCulture or Space being possible results from the way the map has been put together. With limited attack avenues through defensive terrain favouring the defender, it will be difficult to go conquering without a noticable tech advantage ... which is equally dificult to maintain due to the Quick speed of the game.

However that's not to say that I don't anticipate there being wars at some point during the game. I fully expect to go to war with athlete at some point (he seems the weakest player amongst us, and possibly the least used to Multiplayer), and then it will be interesting to see what response that would draw from my East. Hopefully I'll have wrapped Ruff up into a nice long-term deal by then, so it would be down to how sooooo reacts....

Regarding techs, why Civil Service?

Well, CS is generally seen as "a good tech" since it opens up Bureaucracy, irrigation spread, and half of Macemen, as well as access to the Paper, Education route down the middle. But again, lets look at the alternatives:

Calendar & Aesthetics are already taken.
Construction - a building I won't use, not too many rivers for bridge building, Cats are only useful at war, and there probably isn't any Ivory in the game.
Currency - a nice juicy tech option, but one that hopefully mh or athlete will research.
Feudalism - expensive, military, with fewer benefits that CS.
Theology - another religion(!?), but I expect Ruff to bulb at some point
Metal Casting - Forges are useful, but I think I have enough to build right now; again, I suspect someone else will research.
Compass - not really the map for it tbh.

There are certainly some other options there (Currency is the best of them), however after the first round of trades I expect to be in a position where I have sufficient tech in hand to be able to take part in the next round of trades without needing to research anything additional myself.

i.e. If each round is every (say) 6-8t, that means I don't need to prioritise having a new tech by t60 to participate in that round. Thus I can afford to go for an expensive tech. CS fits that bill, getting Bureaucracy early will obviously accelerate me further, and it's also a tech that no-one else can research (OK, sooooo can, but he's committed to Aesth, then probably Lit).

I do need IW in the near future though, so it will be a question of whether I can arrange for someone to research it for me (or maybe they already have it), or if I grab it quickly before going CS.

Of course this all comes with the caveat that I don't yet know how long it will take to get....

[kalin]

Thanks for the explanation. I knew about CS as being a "good tech", I was wondering if your capital is "good" enough to warrant bureaucracy (not that many cottages), although it probably does for production at the very least.

I agree on currency. Trade routes are nice, but markets are quite expensive and you already have courthouses.

IW however you need quite soon for the jungle and of course to see where/if there is iron.

Regarding wars, your position is indeed interesting: while it can be vulnerable, it also gives you most options. The other players can wage war on only 2 players (one of which is you ), while you can do it on everybody.

K

[Dreylin]

Thanks for the explanation. I knew about CS as being a "good tech", I was wondering if your capital is "good" enough to warrant bureaucracy (not that many cottages), although it probably does for production at the very least.

Being the capital does get Istanbul the Palace commerce, as well as preferential trade routes (so when Ruff settles DV, it will connect to Istanbul), but you are right that it is currently generating equal commerce as Edirne.

However, it does have space for two river grass cottages, a river plains cottage (should I want it), a non-river grass cottage (though there's probably a resource under that), the Dyes tile once Calendar & IW release it, and already has an FP Village. So there's potential commerce in the short-term, as well as the production benefits - which are nothing to be sneezed at!

In the longer term, I am considering a re-location of the Palace to Ankara, as a more-central location, and also as a city which can be cottaged fairly enthusiastically.

[Dreylin]

t47 - A cascade of happy events greets me:


(I actually skipped the Meditation pop-up)

Confucianism founds in Ankara with Judaism (would have been nice if it went into Edirne for 3 separate Holy cities. HBR due in 5t. Istanbul starts a Chariot and switches back to growth, Edirne re-configs to grow & complete Archer in 2t (coincides with whip anger wearing off), and at Ankara I decide to allow the Archer to complete since it will coincide with growth.

Wanderer starts having a look around Greek lands:

[Dreylin]

t48 - not much going on this turn domestically; no builds completing. Daisy finishes chopping the forest NW of Edirne; it will overflow through the current Archer and into the Library. Mike moves to the chopped grass hill and starts mining, and Tim finishes roading the forest NW of Ankara on his way to the Wheat.

Foriegn news: sooooo's Phalanx & mh's Scout spy each other across the Gems (very romantic), and Athlete finally asks for open borders as his Warrior nears the Cows. He should run across sooooo's Phalanx as the both traverse my territory.