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Athlete sent a quick note re: Open Borders, so I give him best directions to accomplish his goal.
Quote:Hey Dreylin,
Open borders? I'm feeling chummy...
Athlete
Quote:Athlete,
Accepted. If you take the road from the Cows, then Southern fork across the Dyes and keep heading East, you should meet sooooo's Phalanx coming the other direction.
Dreylin II.
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Ruff appears to be in a fishing mood this morning; received this with the subject line "Panic?":
Quote:Dreylin,
I meant to email you to ask you how you felt about sooooo having a phalanx at your gates while your cities only contained warriors. It could have been a very short game for you. If the worst had happened (WAR!), what would you have done?
Ruff
Quote:Ruff,
Well I was reasonably sure that there was only one unit on its way since my Warrior is now exploring near Sparta and would likely have seen any other units pass him by. I do have an Archer about to complete in Edirne, but if he had declared War I would probably have whipped it out to hold the city, and then a couple of Chariots to take
him down.
He and mh have now met BTW, and Athlete's warrior will probably encounter his Phalanx somewhere near Istanbul to complete the meet & greet phase.
Dreylin II.
I was aware of the possibility - that's why the Archer is coming out of Edirne - but that didn't seem to satisfy Ruff:
Quote:So - everyone has almost met each other - well, no freezing someone out now. Thanks for the news.
I find it interesting that you wouldn't have rallied international efforts to support you.
Ruff
Quote:Ruff,
Well that would have come after the immediate defensive needs, but tbh there's not a lot that "international efforts" can do at this point really, is there? mh&Athlete are too far away to offer material support, and you are locked into a NAP with an ROP clause through Death Valley. It's not like we're trading yet either, so can't campaign to cut him out of that loop!
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Interesting:
Quote:Dreylin,
Hmm - maybe, maybe not. A NAP is an agreement between two reasonable leaders. If one of the leaders proves themselves to be unreasonable (or a despot), then does the NAP hold or can it be argued that it should be broken. What about competing NAPs (say, mine with you and mine with sooooo)?
I suppose that I am saying that, if the worst had come to pass and you did ask me for assistance, you would have not been automatically turned away. I would have given your 'petition' long hard consideration.
Ruff
I suspect that this message is supposed to reassure me or try to build up our friendship, but TBH it actually has had the opposite effect. Ruff seems to be saying that he is prepared to break a NAP agreement if it suits his purposes ... which is really not something you want to hear from your closest neighbour! How would he quantify an "unreasonable" leader; if I declared war on Athlete, would I be a despot and subject to his voiding his NAP?
I'm also not sure how two NAP agreements can compete with each other; surely each document says "I will not be aggressive towards your Civ", so if he's not being aggressive towards me or sooooo, and sooooo and I start fighting surely that means he cannot choose sides until one or both of his agreements expires!?
However, since his intent is probably to try and signal close cooperation I don't really want to call him on it, so I skip the issue entirely in my reply:
Quote:Ruff,
Well it's a moot point now, especially since sooooo and I have now agreed terms on a NAP - he actually propososed a 10t cancellation time - but I will bear that in mind what you have said should something happen in the future.
I will definitely remember what he's said; and since he has told me the details of his NAP with sooooo, I feel that volunteering the same is fair enough.
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Bit of a chat with Ruff this afternoon (I have editted out some extraneous stuff), looks like he thought about the implications of his earlier e-mail (or one of the audience asked him about it...  ):
Quote:Ruff.Hi: also - I was thinking about my sooooo nap email to you over lunch ...
me: mmmm, hmmmm
Ruff.Hi: realized that I could have come across as a slightly flacky partner
offering to drop a NAP
out of the blue liek that
me: Y'know the thought did cross my mind...
Ruff.Hi: just so I'm clear - it was an offer to review a NAP
and I didn't make a similar offer to sooooo
me: Sure
Ruff.Hi: interesting that you and he have a 10 turn COP and you and I have a 15
soo and I are also at 15
me: he was the one who proposed it
Ruff.Hi: some opportunities for wiggle room
me: yeah
Ruff.Hi: oh ... really
me: Yep, I said (approx) "what do you think about a NAP" and he said "sounds good, how about 10t cooling off & 30t minimum"
Ruff.Hi: what easy
30t min - same as ours / and sooo / ruff too
ok, so 30t of expansion then
me: only starting a few turns later
Ruff.Hi: btw - how are you going on your hunt for XPs?
I have 1 on a chariot ... only 9 more to go
I am thinking of keeping a little bit of fog around just to harvest some XPs
me: I haven't managed any XP yet
All the scouting activity must be soaking up the Barbs, 'cos I haven't see a one yet!
Ruff.Hi: last I looked in DV there was one
but soooo will probably eat him
does the map feel small to you? as in, not enough city locations?
me: I need to get a Chariot over to the Barb city and see if I can milk some XP out of it
Ruff.Hi: oh - I forget that you have a source on tap
me: Certainly few "good" locations
I guess the mountains are soaking up a lot of space
Ruff.Hi: yeah - I think micro tile management will come into play
me: Well that plays to sooooo's expertise
Ruff.Hi: yep - will just ahve to see how well we compete
we should have had raging barbs on
me: Yeah, we should
Would have forced us to worry a bit more militarily during the early stages
and given mh & sooooo more directions to worry about
Ruff.Hi: true
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t49 - Archer completes in Edirne w/chop overflow going to Library. Will 2Pop whip when available and then start Worker. Ankara's borders expand and Tim starts Farming the Wheat. Wanderer view more of sooooo's lands to the NE (I will update the big map this evening).
Foriegn News: sooooo's Phalanx & athlete's Warrior should meet next turn outside Istanbul, and mh is the first to found a third city.
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Given your dot map you have quite a bit of land to fill in. I was wondering if it makes sense to try to get some NAPs with your western neighbors as well while expanding like crazy now that you have cheap courthouses available. None of the other players are organized so you are in a position to take full advantage of it.
Also, regarding new research, what's the word on IW? It's not maybe the highest priority, but pretty close, and it will probably be if you cannot trade for it. Not so much for the metal as for cutting the jungle of course. IMO, it's more important than CS if you cannot trade it for.
K
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A couple of e-mails and a short follow-up chat with Ruff from earlier today:
Quote:Dreylin,
I have decided to research Calendar next. From memory, Calendar and CoLs are the same beaker value. Would you be interested in a Calendar / CoL trade?
Cheers,
Ruff
Jackpot! 
Quote:Ruff,
Definitely, I'll put ink to that deal!
After HBR, I'll probably go to IW next so I can start carving cities out of the Jungle!
BTW, are you still interested in getting a Missionary into DV? What is your timeframe for settling; is it still your next target now that you have a settling agreement with both sooooo and I?
Dreylin II
Quote:Ruff.Hi: my next city will be DV ... should ahve it planted in about 5 to 8 turns depending on how quickly I can get the settler into position
so a missionary waiting there would be very nice indeed
then soooo and I can match cultural output
me: I'm not sure I'll be able to have it waiting
Ruff.Hi: np
me: I need to work out where I get it from
Ruff.Hi: don't you have tonnes of them lying about?
me: Heh, no
Ruff.Hi: I swore I saw one on my last pass through your civ
me: Not in OrgRel yet
Ruff.Hi: are you in slavery?
me: That was the free Confucian
yeah
Ruff.Hi: oh ... right
me: Wating for HR to double-revolt
Ruff.Hi: i don't have to wait
the main reason I selected spiritual
me: may have a Monastery up before that though
Ruff.Hi: I hate revolting in PBEM games
me: I dislike it in any game!
Ruff.Hi: yeah - but you don't notice it in SP so much
me: I have to go .... meeting
Ruff.Hi: Ctrl-Enter once or twice and it is over
see ya
So I think I failed to mention the free Confucian Missionary; he walked to Edirne and successfully spread Confucianism last turn.
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kalin Wrote:Given your dot map you have quite a bit of land to fill in. I was wondering if it makes sense to try to get some NAPs with your western neighbors as well while expanding like crazy now that you have cheap courthouses available. None of the other players are organized so you are in a position to take full advantage of it. Hmmm, that's a thought.
kalin Wrote:Also, regarding new research, what's the word on IW? It's not maybe the highest priority, but pretty close, and it will probably be if you cannot trade for it. Not so much for the metal as for cutting the jungle of course. IMO, it's more important than CS if you cannot trade it for. Well I've been thinking about research and it's looking like there's going to be a couple of turns gap between my finishing HBR and receiving Maths. I'll still have 120g+ in the bank, so shutting down research doesn't really make sense therefore I'll probably blast through IW first.
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t50 - slow turn; first Chariot comes out of Istanbul, and start on another (due in 3t). I'm sending this one to finish scouting out the Eastern side of the Great Ocean and confirm the situation regarding access to sooooo's lands. The second will head NW to fog-bust and escort the settler for the Sheep/Clams site.
Foriegn News: sooooo & athlete's scouting units meet on the Dyes tile NE of Istanbul.
Editorial: I'm feeling like there's so much that needs to be built, and not enough time to build it. Because of building the Oracle Istanbul is short of a Granary and also needs a Library soon; but since it is also my best production city, I need it to be producing Military for a while.
Ankara will finish the Archer next turn (to head NW and guard the Worker / fogbust to the new city) and then start on a Settler, which I will probably whip when I can.
Edirne will whip in the Library at the first opportunity and then this is probably the earliest slot to build my next Worker. I'm feeling particularly short of Workers at the moment; there's so much to do just at my existing cities, let alone the new cities I'm planning to found! 
I'm also having second thoughts today about self-researching IW. I do have 2t of Anarchy in the near future (one for Mon/OrgRel, and one for Hinduism(probably)), so I could run those switches while waiting for Maths to come in. I think I'll see if I can hint either athlete or mh towards IW next.
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Dreylin Wrote:I'm also having second thoughts today about self-researching IW. I do have 2t of Anarchy in the near future (one for Mon/OrgRel, and one for Hinduism(probably)), so I could run those switches while waiting for Maths to come in. I think I'll see if I can hint either athlete or mh towards IW next.
I wonder if it won't be better to wait for the switch. You have still to build a lot of units, which will not benefit from OrgRel, and some of those are workers/settlers which means you won't need to grow that much... Also the religion will to spread first, and I don't think that's the main priority. I think the best would be to make some new cities + build some military to define the borders, the backfill at your leisure. Once the expansion is done, you would switch. What do you think of this?
K
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