WW21 - The Professor Is Dead [game thread]

[Mattimeo]

So Lewwyn, Mattimeo do you have actually anything to say to this game. Like... at all? I'm really tempted to vote Mattimeo even though I suppose we will lose the game if I do, simply because I'd rather lose to zak or novice whom I can at least tell myself did something for their win.

Apologies, Wednesday is not the best day for me in terms of available time sitting at home.

Your points against zak are pretty much in line with what I was thinking, just expressed more eloquently than I could have if I'd attempted

If town have two seers it would actually make perfect sense for scum to have a commuter. Isn't a commuter in village hands kind of overpowered in a game this size, actually? Azza should know, he commuted to a town victory in a recent game (his commuter role managed to be overpowered in a game where EVERYTHING was overpowered ).

...are you actively trying to convince people that you and zak are on a scum team or something?

So yeah, I think both Serdoa and Lewwyn are capable of being scum here, so I'm not convinced on Zak. I've mentioned before though that if Zak is scum, Mattimeo almost has to be the scum buddy. And I doubt two out of Lewwyn/Zak/Serdoa have been able to play this well as scum. So I guess I'm willing to lynch Mattimeo first.

If zak is scum, I have to be his buddy, so we should start by lynching me? I fail to see how *any* of that progresses logically...

[Lewwyn]

I just checked my PM and it doesn't say "untargetable", but it says actions targeting me will fail.

[novice]

If town have two seers it would actually make perfect sense for scum to have a commuter. Isn't a commuter in village hands kind of overpowered in a game this size, actually? Azza should know, he commuted to a town victory in a recent game (his commuter role managed to be overpowered in a game where EVERYTHING was overpowered ).

...are you actively trying to convince people that you and zak are on a scum team or something?

No, I'm not. Do you think we are? Why don't you let us know what you think is going on?

So yeah, I think both Serdoa and Lewwyn are capable of being scum here, so I'm not convinced on Zak. I've mentioned before though that if Zak is scum, Mattimeo almost has to be the scum buddy. And I doubt two out of Lewwyn/Zak/Serdoa have been able to play this well as scum. So I guess I'm willing to lynch Mattimeo first.

If zak is scum, I have to be his buddy, so we should start by lynching me? I fail to see how *any* of that progresses logically...

There are only six possible wolf pairs from my point of view. From the interactions I think Lewwyn and Serdoa are unlikely to be paired with Zak (although I will try to reread and reevaluate, looking for possible pairings). Thus there's only one likely partner for scum Zak, and the only wolf pair that doesn't include you as a wolf is Lewwyn+Serdoa.

[Serdoa]

I don't see anything that from an outside perspective should make you believe that I can't be paired with zak. I was pretty adamant in defending him and preventing his lynch 2 days in a row. And Lewwyn, though attacking zak, has made sure not to be on him at the end of the day.

But even if you think we can't, you haven't actually made any point for why Mattimeo should be a wolf. Nor any of us others. You pretty much tell us that you play a numbers game here and are not even looking for clues for who could be a wolf because you appearantly feel fine to base your vote on an assumption that you haven't even checked if it holds water and even if it did has actually no meaning on anyones alignment. I'm sorry but I have a hard time seeing a villager being this deinterested in actually looking for clues. And also when I read your post I got yet again the feeling that you are rather trying to discourage discussion (imo your post stated pretty much: "if anyone comes to defend you, it is obvious that he has to be the wolf just from the possible pairings left").

In total: Too much meta, not enough wolf-hunting for my taste.

[novice]

And also when I read your post I got yet again the feeling that you are rather trying to discourage discussion (imo your post stated pretty much: "if anyone comes to defend you, it is obvious that he has to be the wolf just from the possible pairings left").

I have no idea how you got that idea, I am not in any way trying to discourage discussion, and I didn't say anything about anybody defending Mattimeo. How did you read that into what I wrote?

As for looking for clues, I intend to do that, as I already told Mattimeo. Just going on my current impressions and the claims, I have Mattimeo as my top suspect.

[novice]

By the way here's the post where I implanted in my own mind the idea that Mattimeo must be Zak's scum buddy.

Let's try the Grandmaster's approach and assume Zak is innocent:

Unofficial tally with 2.5 hours remaining

zakalwe (4) - Gazglum, Lewwyn, Ryan, Q
Q (3) - novice, Serdoa, zakalwe
Gazglum (1) - Mattimeo
Serdoa (1) - Jkaen

Scum are happy with the vote split between Zak and Q. I also have town reads on Gazglum and Serdoa. (Gazglum more so than Serdoa). So let's assume:

zakalwe (4) - Gazglum, Lewwyn, Ryan, Q
Q (3) - novice, Serdoa, zakalwe
Gazglum (1) - Mattimeo
Serdoa (1) - Jkaen

Hm, this approach is superfluous with this few players. This is just a complicated way of saying that the scum are two of Zakalwe, Lewwyn, Ryan and Mattimeo.

Let's see what Mattimeo has to say.
Hm. I guess the chart above shows that if Zak is scum his most likely scum partner is Mattimeo. So there's that.

But yeah, it assumes a priori that Serdoa is innocent, and it doesn't take into account the fact that Lewwyn didn't actually end up on Zak. Still, if Lewwyn is Zak's scum buddy he's pushing Zak pretty hard.

But about Zak - he apparently spent day 2 thinking he was communicating in codes with me, and that I was backing him up due to a silent understanding between us. This was not the case. I don't think Zak was faking this. The thing is, I get the feeling this is something a lonely villager could convince himself of, but with a scum partner I don't think you'll be able to do this dance. Zak's explanation of what transpired just fits, whereas I think if he were scum things would have worked out differently.

So yeah, after some reflection I don't really suspect Zak over anybody else at the moment. Which admittedly makes my case on Mattimeo equally weak.

I will try to make up my mind tonight. At the moment my gut says Lewwyn + Mattimeo as scum.

[zakalwe]

Knowing the roles of the dead players sure would be helpful. Maybe that's what the janitor did. Anyway, it seems unlikely that there is just one vanilla townie. So either there are vanilla townies among the dead, or the scum are Mattimeo+Serdoa, or the scum are Novice+Lewwyn. Looking at individual players, I think Mattimeo sits at the top of my list with a "slightly scummy" ranking, and Novice at the bottom with a "slightly townish" ranking. So Mattimeo still feels like the safest bet to me, even if I can't dismiss the possibility of two superwolves, either.

[novice]

Okay, notes from day 1.

Tally with 24 hours to go:

Q (4) - zakalwe, novice, Jkaen, Serdoa
zakalwe (1) - Ryan
Mattimeo (1) - Gazglum
Ryan (1) - Q
Jkaen (1) - Lewwyn
Gazglum (1) - Mattimeo

serdoas

Ryan's

jkaen

Zakalwe

With 9 hours remaining, this makes the tally

Q (3) - novice, Serdoa, zakalwe
zakalwe (2) - Gazglum, Ryan
Jkaen (2) - Q, Lewwyn
Gazglum (1) - Mattimeo
Serdoa (1) - Jkaen

Lewwyn then makes his Q..Zak..Q..Zak post, where he attacks Zak for accusing Lewwyn of hemming and hawwing, and completes the post with:

Qg's recent actions of voting ryan and then voting Jkaen seem to be flailing, but seriously without any goal except not to be lynched. I mean Qg are you even trying to scum hunt at all? I want to vote for Qg because I think he's scummy, but Zak is voting for him and his attack on me feels scummy even if nothing else has. Qg... Zak... Qg... Zak

This effectively forces Q to switch to Zakalwe as well, which he does, and the tally is then

zakalwe (4) - Gazglum, Lewwyn, Ryan, Q
Q (3) - novice, Serdoa, zakalwe
Gazglum (1) - Mattimeo
Serdoa (1) - Jkaen

Now this does read like Lewwyn forcing a Zak/Q showdown, which he was also accused of. The thing that complicates the picture is that it is Mattimeo who points this out.

Mattimeo though, if you are town please talk more than you are. It makes it really hard for the rest of us otherwise, we almost have to lynch you if won't get involved, but we can't afford mislynches. I know it's hard to do too much logic stuff on Day 1, but we need a bit of discussion to help us get a bead on your innocence (or guilt!) in days to come.

Actually surprised no-one's jumped on me for only having one post in the last 45 hours. Makes me think both (two being basically perfect for nine) wolves are perfectly content with the current leading candidates...


zakalwe -

I don't have much to add, really. Jkaen is being kind of scummy but maybe also a bit too sloppy to be scum.

Ryan could also be scum. I haven't seen any indications to the contrary.

I'm happy to see the Q lynch through in the absence of better leads. I have some thoughts about who to look to next, depending on his alignment, so I'd like to see it.

People have responded to the points raised here, but no-one's jumped on it as being "here are a couple of people I'm not voting for, they could easily be either, I'm going to stick where I am 'cause nothing better has come up"? I'm pretty sure I've seen almost exactly this post get people ripped to shreds in every game I've played here - why's it getting past this time?
Maybe it contributed to people voting zak, without being mentioned as such? Given that he's the main candidate now, pushed up past Qgqqqqq...

Qgqqqqq -
What even is the case? Slight awkwardness in initial post, with the explanation not being deemed sufficient? And then, the whole "this would totally be distancing, were I a wolf. But, uh, I'm not, honest, so it's not actually"?
Seems rather typical for Qgqqqqq, honestly.

On the other hand, not sure I like Lewwyn's attempt to reinforce the zak - q split (at the time, the only people with more than one vote against them) rather than raising anyone else to the table.

(From a day 3 viewpoint, this reads as a fairly villagery post by Mattimeo, btw.) So anyway, if Lewwyn is scum and is forcing a villager/villager showdown, who is the other scum? Is Mattimeo distancing that boldly, or is it Serdoa?
Also note that if Lewwyn just wanted a villager/villager showdown he could have stayed on Jkaen earlier with Q, although admittedly it might have been harder to build further momentum on a Jkaen lynch at that point.

So yeah, I think if Lewwyn is scum it is probably not for forcing a villager/villager showdown. He could be scum with Zakalwe, since he ended up switching away from him at the end. But that also seems needlessly risky. If Zakalwe's scum, Serdoa or Mattimeo seem more likely to be the other scum.

Anyway, to conclude the day 1 retelling, Lewwyn switches to Q:

I really don't have to say much at this point, apart from that lynching zak, who is the only one to actually contribute anything meaningful D1, is just bad play. Honestly, zak is spot on that Lewwyn is waffling on Q. Lewwyn states that Q is suspicious in his first post on the matter and that Q's explanation (playing too terrible to be scum) is actually showing that he is not playing terrible -> might very well be scum. Yet he still kept his vote on Jkaen. And what was the initial reason to vote for Jkaen?

"Jkaen's one post so far is a vote for novice based on Novice character claim through a new avatar. Jkaen why is that suspicious?"

Lewwyn never reacted to the answer Jkaen gave, but when he stated that Q is suspicious, he didn't move his vote. Why? I mean clearly if you feel that Q is suspicious he is a better target for your vote than Jkaen, looking at your reasoning for the vote on him. And in his last post he waffled again if he should vote Q or zak. And voted finally zak, again stating that Q is scummy while zak is not APART from his "attack" on Lewwyn.

You did package it up nicely and all Lewwyn, but in the end you simply voted for zak without having any reason besides him pointing out that you refrain from voting for Q while trying to appear suspicious of him. And that IS scummy, zak is absolutely right in attacking you for it.

I'll keep my vote on Q, simply because I don't want to lose zak as I doubt heavily that he is a wolf. But quite honestly, I will definitely help a Lewwyn-lynch along, as I've seen nothing to make me in the slighest believe that he plays for the village.

Jesus what is this catch 22 bullshit? After Q's pretty suspicious "I'm not scum cuz I'm playing terrible bit" I had pretty much decided that Q would be among my last choices for the day. I DID NOT want a landslide vote on Qg that would create no information for the village so I was looking around at different people, ie: Jkaen.

Then Zak attacked me with a pretty scummy attack in my opinion. I decided that I'd vote for him then. Why not? I was going to be online all day and could actually react! SO I voted for Zak with an eye on Qg.

Now I'm being attacked by Mattimeo for saying I'm splitting the vote. Reinforcing it Zak and Qg as the top two candidates. I was actually trying not to do that by not voting for Qg who I thought was extremely suspicious. I was trying not to lock the town into a landslide Qg vote so we might learn something else. But apparently that's scummy because it puts those two at the top and its scummy because I also think Qg is scummy.

Qg

The last vote of the day is JKaen switching from Serdoa to Zakalwe, making it 4-4 again between Q and Zak, with Q hanging both with and without my tiebreaker.

Conclusion: I'm having trouble making the pieces fit with Lewwyn as scum. Lewwyn+Serdoa as scum seems most likely in that case. One notch down on the scum ladder for Lewwyn.

P.S: I didn't really mean for my day 1 rereading to be all about Lewwyn, it was just what caught my eye when reading.

[Lewwyn]

P.S: I didn't really mean for my day 1 rereading to be all about Lewwyn, it was just what caught my eye when reading.

Flattered.

But does this mean you think Matt is the scummiest? And I know you think Zak is more likely innocent, but what do you think of a Matt/Zak scum pair. IMO its the most likely pair right now.

[Lewwyn]

I'm trying to decide who I think is the least suspicious at this point. I know I'm innocent so if I think about who I think is most innocent then I'll have 3 people left and only possible scum pairs. Of novice, Zak, Serdoa and Matt I'm reading novice with the strongest town lean. Both in terms of meta (since I think the tiebreak is more of a townie ability) and in terms of posts. Today in particular novice seems to be doing the most work though considering he's voting for the minority candidate I think he should be if he wants to convince anyone to switch their vote. In any case I'm leaning more village on novice than zak, matt and Serdoa.

So given that possible scum pairs are

Zak and Matt
Zak and Serdoa
Serdoa and Matt

Of these 3 I think the Zak and Serdoa pairing is actually the least likely. This is based on Serdoa's really aggressive defense of Zak, which I think is simply too aggressive. And now his rather abrupt turn towards Zak as a suspect in part decided by his longer post on Zak earlier in the day. I don't really seem them as a pair.

That leaves me with Zak/Matt and Serdoa/Matt.

I've stated before that I think the Zak/Matt pair is the most likely scum pair. And this is more because I think Zak is more likely scum than Serdoa is, though I admit its more based on meta than on Zak's posts.

Matt is the common denominator between these two pairs though.

Matt, if Zak is scum, who is is scumbuddy? And please explain why you think so.

Serdoa, I asked you before why you think Matt is innocent And you said:

Sorry, didn't mean to be harsh. This silence is just nerve-wracking because I get the feeling it just means that the wolves are happy with were the votes are. Which might at the worst mean that neither zak nor Matt is a wolf.

Technically there are 3 votes on Zak so if the wolves are happy that doesn't exclude Matt as a possible wolf because he's not actually going to be lynched if the votes stay the same. So do you think Matt is innocent based on his play? Who do you think is Zak's scumbuddy if he's scum? Do you think I'm reading Novice wrong?