Intersite Game - Turn Discussion Thread

[novice]

novice, can you post a save stack or micro outline of your turn by turn actions at the capital? I'm interested in seeing what you're doing, it's just hard for me to grasp your whip suggestions without seeing it in practice. I'm confident that we can find a way to incorporate your ideas into the larger picture of what I've been doing with the rest of the civ.

I'd be happy to. Here's a save stack:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/15215428/ISDG1/...temple.zip

I just left all other cities unmanaged and workers unmoved (Except I did make sure that the HE and GLH finished in a timely manner, this was relevant since AO shares tiles with these cities). On t130 I had to add 40 gold in World Builder, build wealth, and work a few scientists to get Liberalism done. So either we'll have to build some wealth on earlier turns too, or actually manage our cities.

Anyway, the build order in AO was:
t121-t123: Market to completion
t124-126: Settler to 98/100
t127: Adopt OR and Slavery. AO gets the deer from Mansa's Muse, Mansa's Muse stagnates.
t127-t129: Temple to 73/80
t130: Double-bulb Edu, overflow from Archery/Philo/Paper to a 1-turn Liberalism
t130: 1-pop whip Temple and MM to get 160/80 hammers at eot. Regrow to size 14 at eot.
t131: Overflow to Tah Mahal
t132: (or later): 1-pop whip settler
t133: Overflow back to Taj Mahal
eot146: Complete Taj Mahal.

[kjn]

Quickie notes as the turn rolled:

Parthenon has been built in far away land. One guess on who did it.

Apolyton has researched Paper. Liberalism race is ON!

Also, Lew is surrounded by barbarian warriors.

[novice]

And here's an amended plan that delays the market in exchange for 1 turn faster TM. I haven't simmed this, but it works in theory.

t121-t123: Market to near completion
t124-126: Settler to 98/100
t127: Adopt OR and Slavery. AO gets the deer from Mansa's Muse, Mansa's Muse stagnates.
t127-t129: Temple to 73/80
t130: Double-bulb Edu, overflow from Archery/Philo/Paper to a 1-turn Liberalism
t130: 1-pop whip the Market and MM to put 50 base hammers into the market. Regrow to size 14 at eot.
t131: Overflow to Taj Mahal
t132: (or later): 1-pop whip settler
t133: Overflow back to Taj Mahal
t144: 1-pop whip Temple
eot145: Complete Taj Mahal.

I'm not sure which of these plans I prefer. I haven't calculated how much gold the delayed market costs us.

And here's the cascade version, which might let us shave off yet another turn. This probably requires very precise tile management in AO, I have no idea if this works. It will probably leave AO at size 12 for some time which means the natural production might be limited to 20hpt.

t121-t123: Market to near completion
t124-126: Settler to 98/100
t127: Adopt OR and Slavery. AO gets the deer from Mansa's Muse, Mansa's Muse stagnates.
t127-t128: Temple or Monastery to as much as we can get it.
t129: 1-pop whip the Temple or Monastery, micro-managing to get as close to 120/60 or 160/80 as possible.
t130: Double-bulb Edu, overflow from Archery/Philo/Paper to a 1-turn Liberalism
t130: Overflow to market and 1-pop whip the Market and put max hammers into it. Regrow to size 13 at eot?
t131: Overflow a bunch of hammers to Taj Mahal
t143: (might be able to do it earlier): 1-pop whip settler
eot144: Complete Taj Mahal??

If we can make the cascade version work for eot144 it gets my vote, provided the lost gold from the delayed market doesn't delay Lib, of course. If anybody wants to run a sim where they actually manage the cities and also make sure that the sandbox isn't ahead of the game in commerce, that would be awesome. It would be great to know how much leeway we have commercewise to make an eot130 Lib.

The cascade version is probably a lot easier to make work if we decide to single-bulb Education, since I imagine this will delay Lib to (at least) eot131, giving us more time to set up the cascade. But in practical terms I guess we'll have to make a TM plan now for an eot130 Lib, and just timeshift things by one or two turns if we do decide to hold on to our second great scientist.

From previewing Kjn's quickie notes, it looks like we may well decide not to hold on the second great scientist.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Quickie notes as the turn rolled:

Parthenon has been built in far away land. One guess on who did it.

Apolyton has researched Paper. Liberalism race is ON!

Also, Lew is surrounded by barbarian warriors.

How much gold does Apolyton have left?

[kjn]

That's the good news. Apolyton has 3 gold in the bank right now, they had 4 gold on T116 when they finished Metal Casting.

T116: 4
T117: 114
T118: 212
T119: 317
T120: 212
T121: 102
T122: 3

Ie, they're at near a perfect 50% research rate (probably 48-50%), and can generate 150 raw beakers per turn, sustained. It will take them 18t to research Education if they hold that pace, but I'm quite sure they have a GS tucked away to bulb Education, with the possibility of another. The good news is that they have relatively little pop and aren't in caste, so they can't churn out very quick scientists like we do right now. The bad news is that if they saved the T116 GS, and had set up another city as followup, then they're due the next GS at around T125.

To sum it up, I think they can beat us to Education with a double-bulb, but I don't think they can beat us to Liberalism if we do our own double-bulb.

Anyway, two other things:




Lew surrounded by barbs. Poor things.




Should we notify the Germans about the barb axe? If they move two tiles southwards without entering our borders, then they get a nasty surprise from that barb axe. We need to do it ASAP if we are to do it.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

That's the good news. Apolyton has 3 gold in the bank right now, they had 4 gold on T116 when they finished Metal Casting.

T116: 4
T117: 114
T118: 212
T119: 317
T120: 212
T121: 102
T122: 3

Ie, they're at near a perfect 50% research rate (probably 48-50%), and can generate 150 raw beakers per turn, sustained. It will take them 18t to research Education if they hold that pace, but I'm quite sure they have a GS tucked away to bulb Education, with the possibility of another. The good news is that they have relatively little pop and aren't in caste, so they can't churn out very quick scientists like we do right now. The bad news is that if they saved the T116 GS, and had set up another city as followup, then they're due the next GS at around T125.

To sum it up, I think they can beat us to Education with a double-bulb, but I don't think they can beat us to Liberalism if we do our own double-bulb.

Anyway, two other things:




Lew surrounded by barbs. Poor things.




Should we notify the Germans about the barb axe? If they move two tiles southwards without entering our borders, then they get a nasty surprise from that barb axe. We need to do it ASAP if we are to do it.

That's good news indeed with Apolotyn. I hope we get no nasty surprises there.

The bastard part of me wants the axe to take out the German chariot. I think they're our biggest competition to get the circumnavigation bonus. I'm not terribly worried about the diplo hit with them, tbh, unless we think this somehow helps in the dialogue to get them to hook up marble. As remote as that is, though, I'd say let nature take it's course.

[kjn]

Took another look at the GS bulb order, and depending on how prepared Apolyton are, they might be able to bulb Liberalism with a GS.

The relevant techs they know are Paper, Philosophy, Mathematics, Sailing. The relevant techs they do NOT know are Aesthetics, Calendar, Machinery, and Iron Working.

They can easily double-bulb Education, just like we plan to do. Printing Press requires Machinery, so that's blocked. Optics requires Compass, which requires Iron Working, so by not having IW they block out that line. Ie, they need to research Aesthetics and Calendar (1080 base beakers, with extra discounts from known techs), and can then put in a GS bulb worth circa 1650-1700 beakers into Liberalism.

If they had prepared stuff beforehand, they have one GS saved which will bulb half of Education this turn, and they will get another GS on T125 or 126 that will bulb the rest of Education. Say that they clear away Aesthetics and Calendar in 5t, that's 127. They can't get another GS until T134 then, which means our T130 or T131 Liberalism should be good enough.

But if they're really planning, they might have not one but two saved scientists, but I really doubt that. The scientists were born on T116, T106 (bulbed Philosophy), T101 (by CFC), 97, 95, 84, and 68, and two of them belong to CivPlayers and CivFr.

ETA: This assumes they won't roll the GP roulette and run two scientists and an engineer.

[novice]

Good stuff, kjn. Our plan seems pretty well laid out to deal with this. I suppose we could try to speed up Lib further by building wealth, but in that case I think we'd also have to speed up our second Great Scientist, I think it's currently scheduled to be born at the start of t130, when we double-bulb Education.

[Sullla]

Apolyton has never been in Caste System at any point in time, which limits them to 12 Great Person points/turn maximum. They only just discovered Metal Casting, and established their own religion less than a dozen turns ago, so it's not like they've been able to run Engineer or Priest specialists for bonus GPP. Unless they were running early Merchants (markets) or Spies (courthouses) and got lucky somewhere, Apolyton's pool of available specialists should have been pretty limited.

Anyway, I don't think they have anywhere near as many Great Scientists as kjn has suggested. We know that the T68 Great Scientist was used by Apolyton for an Academy in their capital, and the T106 Scientist was used for a Philosophy lightbulb. There have been five other Scientists, and three of them were produced by CFC / CivPlayers / CivFr. I think it's stretching things a bit to attribute all unknown Scientists to Apolyton. I doubt that they could manage to produce 5 Scientists in the first 125 turns without ever running Caste System or popping a Golden Age. I guess we'll find out.

At this point, I definitely do think that we'll need to use both of our own Scientists on lightbulbs to insta-knock out Education. End of turn 130 is pretty much the best we can do, so Apolyton is on the clock to see if they can finish Liberalism themselves in the next 8 turns.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

What is our turn estimate on a full exploration of our south? In the tundra down there, how many marble-eligible tiles are there?

Based on the location we have seen of stone and marble thus far, we have to assume there is no marble hidden in the tundra.