[SPOILER] Ikhanbod

[Ichabod]

The game takes too long and I'm impatient. So I'm starting a thread to make up for it.

I've never completed a Civ 5 game. Ok, I had to take that out of my chest. Though I managed to get pretty far into some games that seemed to be won. I usually play Emperor and I'm not finding it difficult. Blame it on the AI, most likely...

Thing is, I really don't know what I'm doing when I play Civ 5. I don't know what I should try to tech, I don't know what I need to build or when I need to build it. I'm not even sure what improvements I should be building (though it seems that the trading posts are dead, after all the nerfs). My games are mostly based on settling luxuries and... pretty much that, I guess. If you get a low luxuries map or a map with loads of the same luxury... Well, I really don't know what to do then. I don't even know if I should grow my cities or not and when should I stop to build a settler...

I don't know when to build workers, nor how many I need. I don't know if the free settler and worker from liberty are a must and I hate thinking about getting them or not. I hate that damn improvement timer that always shows 1 turn but the damn improvement is never ready (ok, it's not exactly like that, but it's close). I also hate crossing rivers with my workers.

With all that in mind, I think a Civ 5 MP game might be very interesting. Most of the strategies I know regarding Civ 5 are based on abusing stupid AIs. Without that possibility, there seem to be a very nice puzzle ahead of me in this game.

Ok, so let's talk Civ picks. The ones I've considered:

Maya - their UB is a shrine (early religious building, same cost as monument, very cheap) that gives 2 faith (instead of 1) and 2 science. You may be thinking right now: only 2 science, that's hardly any good. Well, considering that you start the game producing 5 science, as far as I can remember, that's actually quite a big boost. If I go that way, I'll probably be first to religion and a bit late to policies. I'd also probably go for Tradition, if that's the case (note -> gotta check how the 25% worker ratio bonus from liberty works in quick speed - if it changes mines and farms from 4 turn builds to 3 turn builds, I'll probably have to get it).

Their UU is a cheaper archer that doesn't require archery, also a bit useful. The UA gives free Great People after you research Theology for each 394 years that pass (only one of each kind) -> sounds pretty useful - get GP for free, don't worry about having to actually generate them.

Inca - Their unique improvement is awesome, a farm built on hills that gets boosted if there's a mountain nearby. Apparently their flavor start places them near hills and mountains, which is good, actually. The UU is basically irrelevant (replaces archers and has a chance of dodge meele combat). The UA is pretty good: double move on hills, no improvement cost on hills (that means no cost for roads on hills, I guess - is there any other improvement that costs maintenance? - I hate Civ 5 stupid descriptions of abilities, always misleading).

Arabs - Their flavor start places them near desert, which, apparently, is the best terrain type... Even without the uber broken desert folklore thingy. Their UU is a powerful ranged replacement for Knights, more attack power but less mobility than Keshiks, which are very similar (there's some other differences, though). UB is insignificant in a MP environment, I think, though maybe it can get some use. UA is insignificant (a it more gold on TRs - bonus to Oil resources (like that's going to be meaningful) - I hate this UAs with a lot of different, completely unrelated bonuses).

Spain - I like building scouts early! Spain gets 500 gold if you find a Natural Wonder before anyone else. That's an El Dorado for every NW (and 1000 for El Dorado - and the Barrier Reef, that counts as 2 NW). And that means fast, fast, fast... well, everything, sicen gold can buy you everything in the game (not Great People, I guess). If you find it after someone else, you get only 100 gold (I had to look all over the internet for this info, because the great civilopedia doesn't say the actual values). But Spain also gets double happiness for finding NW and double yield for them (Spain apparently has a coastal start flavour - if I spawn near the Bareer Reef, not only do I get 1000 gold, I also fet 2 4 food, 2 prod, 2 gold and 4 science... Good game right there...). The ability is pretty good, even if you don't luck out on the NWs (just think how long it'll take for you to get 100 gold with the Arab UA - and Spain gets it faster and probably gets more), but it's blatantly broken if you do. UUs are solid, but not spectacular, since they come later (the conquistador will not see use in our game, though -> it's a knight that can build cities on other continents).

I'm considering picking Spain because they seem fun. I like to explore and the other power combos seem dull.

Mongols - Keshiks own (6 movement points ranged knights that get faster promotions and don't have maluses while attacking cities ftw!), Khans help keshiks (Khans are great generals with 5 movement points and better healing). Who cares about the rest, build keshiks, kill mostly everyone, get destroyed by the ones who turtled up and teched. That's a victory in my book.

China - Crossbows are a very powerful unit, from what I can gather. China gets one with double attacks per turn. The UB is a library that gives gold (and doesn't cost maintenance, giving even more gold). UA empowers great generals. Solid all around, maybe boring.

Germany - Cool UA, that can get you units for free and gold by killing barbs, while also giving discount in unit maintenance. They also have a 45 hammers Pikeman replacement (pikeman costs 90 hammers), which is awesome. Panzers are mostly irrelevant.

Aztecs and Persia seem very cool, but I don't want to play civs that were already played on PBEM I. Korea and Babylon are supposed to be good too, but I don't want to play them.

Well, we'll see how this goes. I'm considering mongols, germany or spain for the fun factor. It's that or rolling a dice, I guess.

[Ichabod]

I'm having a hard time in my test games (disclaimer: I'm playing in SP, but acting under the rules of this game and the actions that I think my opponents will have). Bunch of maps with 2 to 3 max happy resources in near vicinity. I don't see much I can do in cases like these. You can't expand and you can't grow your cities, since it all costs happiness. Well, you can build the happy buildings, but knowing that other players are wasting 4 worker turns to get the same that costs you 50+ hammers is though.

You can use money and ally city states to get happy. But if you do that, you don't have money to buy settlers and workers, so you won't be expanding that much...

I guess the game will require careful planning regarding when to expand, when to grow, when to stagnate your cities. Unlike Civ IV, the decision is a global one, taking multiple factors into account. In Civ IV, you go city by city regarding happiness and you grow them as much as possible, most of the time (and every happy resource adds an infinite number of happy faces, depending on your number of cities). Besides, you can always stagnate city building a settler (which isn't possible in Civ V, since that'd mean even more unhapiness).

I'll have to completely get rid of my Civ IV schemes and start thinking fresh. The first thing to tackle is happiness. It's the one thing that always troubles me in the game. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a Civ that helps with hapiness... There's Spain, but it also depends on luck and it's a fairly negligible bonus.

Interesting stuff... Apparently, Civ 5 is way more map dependant than I thought before. The tile yields don't change much, but the avaiability of happy resources is absolutely key. Well, only way to be sure is play the game.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'll dedlurk you, so as to get some practice for XXVII
I know nothing about Civ 5, except what I've read on this site and in thawks reports.
He just did a comparison of liberty and tradition by the way, though I doubt its adapted for MP.

[Qgqqqqq]

Reading that: 6 movement points?!?!!!?
Ok, readjusting myself, we're the hippus.

How do promotions work?

[Ichabod]

The most important thing about promotions in Civ 5 is that you need to take them in the same turn the unit was promoted. There's no saving promotions for later. I imagine that's to prevent the abuse of the "heal instantly" promotion (it's not actually a promotion, but you have to choice to spend a promotion to heal your unit 50 HP). That gets us into an interesting position where building barracks (that give XP to recently built units) can be a bad idea, since you have to take the promotion when the unit was created, missing the chance of an instant heal, that is pretty useful in battle (it takes just a few battles - only 2 in some cases - to get the first promotion, that requires 10 xp, but the next one can be too late to matter).

Anyway, in my limited experience, the 2 choice promotions on level 1 (besides the heal) give either a bonus on combat in Open terrain or a bonus in Closed terrain (make that rough terrain ). After these first promos, some more interesting promos come along. Cover, which gives protection against ranged attacks, seem good. It seems there's a March promotion (heal even if moved), which would be fairly good on the mongols, because the Khan gives a healing bonus to adjacent units, better than the usual Great general. There are also some pretty good promotions, now that I look at the Civilopedia. There's promotions to get an extra attack per turn, to give one more range to ranged attacks. Very powerful! Though I imagine it'll take quite some xo to get these.

[Ichabod]

It seems my opponents checked the same sources as me.

Let me try to guess the next ones: China, Aztecs, Germany.

Babylon as runners-up.

[Ichabod]

Just realized Keshiks don't get 6 movement points. The Civilopedia decided that it would be awesome to already consider the Mongolian UA when showing the movement points of Keshiks. Cool, right?

Rule number 1 of Civ 5: Always, ALWAYS test things ingame. The civilopedia sucks massively. The ingame info is already bad, but the Civilopedia is beyond bad.

Keshiks are still awesome units, such as the Khans. But that was disappointing. The arab UU is pretty close in power to the Keshiks, even more so than I've thought.

[Ichabod]

I figured out the problem with Keshiks! They are ranged units, not mounted units, even though they are on a horse. So they don't get the bonus to mounted units from the Mongolian UA!

At the same time, I discovered something nice. The March promotion only requires accuracy or barrage II (the ranged promotions), while requiring Shock or Drill III (the meele promotions). So, Alhambra is actually a pretty good Wonder for the mongols (it gives Barrage I for free), making March promotion pretty simple to acquire. - Actually, scratch that, it gives Drill, not Barrage... Gotta work out how the meele promotions work for Ranged units...

Interesting point: Mobility is a promotion apparently only avaiable to ranged units (according to the Civilopedia). But it requires III levels of the meele promotions to unlock. So... how exactly does that work?

Another question: how does the XP requirements progress in Civ 5? It's 10xp, than 30xp, if I'm not mistaken, but what are the following numbers?

[Ichabod]

By the way, one thing Civ 5 did very well is the importance of early military. Barbs are very well balanced so as to not be completely irrelevant/completely game breaking, like it was on Civ IV (where losing at something like 10% odds aginst a barb could mean a loss city). You need to defend your improvements, workers and settlers and the barbs are constantly pestering you. But they can't actually make a whole bunch of damage, like razing a city or the like, just because of a bad roll.

It's very easy to get over-stretched and underdefended in your first games of Civ 5. Hopefully my opponents make such mistakes.

Besides, early warring can be profitable on Civ 5, I guess. You need those luxuries, alright!

[Ichabod]

I'm pretty happy that Davey ended up with Korea, not China. Cho-Ko-Nus seem scary and, as far as I know, they retain the double attack promo when upgraded.

From the picks, Maya, Korea, Egypt and Siam are all peacenik civs (egypt even has a UB that gives more gold in case your city is captured ). Only Arabia can compete with Keshiks. I'm going to play a bloody game, of that I'm certain.