Serdoa and Civ 5 - a love/hate story in 0 acts

[Serdoa]

Thanks for the input. Most of it wasn't known by me, so thats great I agree with you that a worker early might not be very helpful most of the time, though I think in this case he can

- mine the silver-tile that will get into cultural-borders before he pop
- quarry the stone-tile
- pasture the cattle-tile that I probably will buy into cultural-borders
- probably improve another silver/marble tile that hopefully will have come into my borders till that point

That should be ~12 turns for the first 3 tasks. Another 4 for the next silver/marble and we are already at T29 before he needs something to do. Of course I am not sure that I will have the pop to work those tiles, but we'll see.

I wholeheartedly agree on the "move settler" part. I'm just too inexperienced in Civ5 to know that settling on the silver makes sense. And if I factor in that I could have built Stone Works it most definitely would have been. Oh well, there is always a next game. But in general, how does the settling mechanic work apart from hills giving another hammer? Do I also get more gold if I settle on a gold-resource like silver? Or more food if I settle on cattle?

[SadGit]

Its been a long time since I last played the game so a bit fuzzy, but I dont believe you get any boons from settling on food or commerce. Btw, that stoneworks should still be doable for you, since its plains that negate it so brown tiles.
V is lousy for simming, but I did just do a small test. Depending on which policy you go for the worker should time good for improving those tiles, and you shouldnt have to buy the cows either.
Plan was mining->masonry->then top to pyramid and then animal hus? One thing to be aware of in G&K, the early warr wont have much time to scout since the barbs are agressive. Getting the worker out might be the least of your problems, getting a chance to improve tiles and prevent them being pillaged (which will heal the barbs as I recall) can be tough with just the one warr.

[T-hawk]

Yes, the Stone Works will be available for a city on a grassland tile. It's plains that prevents it. Which yes is a really weird and dumb restriction.

Second policy should be the +2 food +10% growth in the capital.

That can't be second, it requires Legalism.

What I still need to decide is if I really want to delay the Pyramid in the capital till I get to Piety.

No. As you say, the Pyramid will get you a Pantheon, and that will certainly be worth more than the 20 saved hammers.

1.) The UA from the Mayas, getting GP, does that work on every kind of GP or are GG and GAdmirals not included? If they are included thats a total of 7 GP one can get. So I should have Theology latest around 1200 BC right? 3 GP till 0AD, 4 more till 1600 AD.

Every kind of GP, including general and admiral. The GP are awarded at specific turn numbers; check CFC for the details.

2.) Again, UA from the Mayas: Do those GP count against the GP-counter or are they really free?

GS, GM, GE, GA all count against the main counter. The Prophet counts against BOTH the main counter and Prophet counter. The General and Admiral count against their own counters.

Aqueduct carries over 40% food after growth, just like the granary in all past Civs.

Hanging Gardens gives the regular Garden even if the city does not have water access.

Jungle tiles give +2 science with a university in the city.

You can't know exactly which tile will be taken next, but you can guess by clicking the Buy Tile button and looking at the costs. The next tile will always be from the lowest tier of costs you see, though there may be several such.

I STILL don't know how the Tradition opener works. The XML says it reduces the exponent by 25. I don't know what that means. In general, it cuts expansion costs to somewhere below half by the 5th tile or so.

Culture policy costs on quick are indeed 67% of normal. But it's always rounded off to the nearest 5. The first one is 25 * 0.67 = 16.75 which gets rounded down to 15. It's hard to figure precisely because the in-game numbers for normal speed are also after rounding. I've seen tables on CFC somewhere listing all combinations of city count, game speed, and policy cost.

Settling on a resource works just like Civ 4. You get extra for any yield type where the unimproved tile produces more than the standard city square yield of 2-1-1. This includes regular hills, which yield 2 hammers unimproved and thus boost the city square.

The Palace gives +3 hammers, so your 7-hammer demographics rival has a 2-hammer city square and is working a 2-hammer tile.

[Serdoa]

Thanks for all the information

That can't be second, it requires Legalism.

Right. So third policy. Though now thinking about it, I wonder if that makes really sense. I am thinking right now about instead going

1st policy: Tradition opener (around T9)
2nd policy: Liberty opener (around T13)
3rd policy: Republic (around T19)
4th policy: Collective Rule (around T31)

Build Order:

Monument till EOT6
Worker till EOT12
Atlatlist till EOT17
Pyramid till EOT21
Granary till EOT27

Research:

Mining till EOT6
Masonry till EOT12
Pottery till EOT16
AH till EOT20

That would have me expand pretty late I feel, but OTOH Civ5 seems not so extreme on having to expand early on.

Oh, and appearantly I shouldn't have taken Maya because their UA sucks - I mean whats the point in getting "free" GP, when you are not getting them free but just some free GPP?

[SadGit]

Oh, and appearantly I shouldn't have taken Maya because their UA sucks - I mean whats the point in getting "free" GP, when you are not getting them free but just some free GPP?

Well it can let you focus on growth since you are less dependent on working specialists. It can yield you specific GPs for citystate Qs and some of those can be hard to grow without specific wonders. With extreme micro you can push for a lot of homegrown at the low natural cost then let the bonus ones trickle in later. You can pop a Prophet to enhance religion and spend faith on buildings/units instead in a snowball scenario. Its an extra Engi for a wonder. On a map where you are stuck inland an admiral can be a great scout; massive movement compared to early ships and can sail ocean, find the islandstates fast for gold and quests.

One other thing to remember, the wonders and policies that give "four X for free", thats the buildings AND no upkeep on them.

[Serdoa]

Ok, so spawn-dates for GP from the UA (once you have Theo, not giving them retroactively):

On quick speed:
Turn 67
Turn 77
Turn 88
Turn 102
Turn 122
Turn 152

Thats interesting. I wonder what is the date before T67, but I couldn't find anything about that. I'd guess T57 as I think early game turns are 40 years per turn.

Anyhow, guess I have to see how I can get Theology done till T66, so that I can get the GP on T67.

[Serdoa]

And after - interestingly enough - not as much work as I thought I finished myself a spreadsheet to try different openings. Needs to be refined to calculate research, faith, gold and culture, but those all seem - at least early on - pretty straightforward and should be relatively simple to calculate for the first 50 turns. And after that I normally stop using tables like that anyway as it gets too complex with all the cities... oh wait, that was Civ4 we'll see how long that is useable in Civ5.

However, according to my table I should have my Pyramid up at EOT20 (if my research is enough), which should give me a pantheon at T23 I think. T-Hawk, do you know in which sequence Civ5 calculates? Food -> Production -> culture -> Faith etc.?

[SevenSpirits]

I know from experience it goes food -> production -> gold (and new population points start working immediately). Don't remember or know where the other ones fit in, but probably after production.

[SadGit]

Regarding pantheon. As I recall the cost goes up for each player founding one. So if someone has hutluck and bumps a religious city state they might grab the first and delaying you a bit.

[T-hawk]

1st policy: Tradition opener (around T9)
2nd policy: Liberty opener (around T13)
3rd policy: Republic (around T19)
4th policy: Collective Rule (around T31)

This is always slower to Collective Rule than skipping the Tradition opener and going there directly. Like every other policy that produces culture, the Tradition opener looks good but in fact never catches up to its own exponential cost addition. Take the Tradition opener only if the expansion discount is what you want from it.

Oh, and appearantly I shouldn't have taken Maya because their UA sucks - I mean whats the point in getting "free" GP, when you are not getting them free but just some free GPP?

They're not useful for fast-finish single player stuff, since they can't concentrate on pure Great Scientists or Artists to target a victory condition. It can be useful for incremental advantages since you do get all those Great People much sooner -- it takes forever to start ramping up real GPP production in Civ 5 with fewer specialist slots and much lower multipliers than in Civ 4.

Anyhow, guess I have to see how I can get Theology done till T66, so that I can get the GP on T67.

It's actually two turns ahead - you need to finish Theology end of T65, so that the "Maya Long Count Bonus" triggers on T66.

T-Hawk, do you know in which sequence Civ5 calculates? Food -> Production -> culture -> Faith etc.?

It's definitely food - production - everything else. The Pyramid will produce both faith and science on the turn it's completed.