WW22 - Diaries of the Madmen

[Azza]

So how do you explain my vote for Jkaen?

Or my vote for Mattimeo yesterday, for that matter?

If I was trying to kill the puppetmaster, wouldn't I be night killing one of the people who voted you mayor and targetting one of them on night 1?

[Gazglum]

So how do you explain my vote for Jkaen?

It's true that I don't think you are both scum, I don't see how that would work. I am considering parallel hypotheses. It doesn't mean I'm letting Jkaen out of my sight, but I haven't loved your attacks against perceived and real puppetmasters.

Assuming that Ryan is the puppetmaster, which I think he must be, scum or town, how do you feel about Q now?

Or my vote for Mattimeo yesterday, for that matter?

If I was trying to kill the puppetmaster, wouldn't I be night killing one of the people who voted you mayor and targetting one of them on night 1?

Mattimeo could have been bussing. I kind of feel that nobody's vote on Mattimeo is that much of a town tell, because we went from 'too early for a vote to be dangerous' to 'Mattimeo looking like a certain lynch' pretty fast, and I can imagine scum voting for him at almost any point in the day for different reasons.

I concede your point about night-killing Ryan or Q, I hadn't thought of that. It does lessen my suspicion a bit. I do think that Lewwyn was second most confirmed village though, and so perhaps a more valuable target to kill.

As Zakalwe suggested, if you were scum, having a puppet master isn't necessarily that bad for you early on. It gives you voting cover, and you could still night kill. The danger would be in late-game when every vote counts, so trying to publically locate the puppet-master Day 2 could make sense.

[Gazglum]

Would a GM really give out an ability that took away someone's ability to impact the lynch? It's a pretty harsh penalty, that could heavily impact their enjoyment of the game. That's why I was asking before if there is a precedent for it in our games.

No precedent and it is indeed pretty harsh, although creative.

I think this line of thinking is what makes me uncomfortable about you Azza. I know that we're back in meta, and I apologise for that to people who dislike it. Maybe we should sign an agreement before next WW not to use it.

Anyway, the point is this: if you are town, Azza, then you have no autonomy. Nor do you have much way to regain your autonomy, except by lynching your master. If your master was scum, then I can see that working, because the 'correct' town game would see them lynched anyway, and so hopefully you would end up freeing yourself.

But if your master is town, and I think Ryan is (hope not to look back at this post and cry), then it seems really unfair for you. You have no autonomy, and no real way of getting it back. You can't kill Ryan, and the only way to regain your freedom is by mislynching Ryan. Which is bad for town.

I would be kind of pissed if we were given a negative ability which can only be raised damaging our chance to win.

But if you are scum and Ryan is town, the game makes sense. You are given a penalty, but -you- have the ability to free yourself by nightkilling or mislynching your master. It gives you something active to work towards, rather than forcing you to be passive the whole game. And in this case, freeing yourself becomes a dual success - it's a personal win, and it's also a win for your team.

If Ryan is town, then you being scum is better game design.

[Qgqqqqq]

I agree with a lot gazglun is saying here - I see Ryan as more innocent then azza. and I find it unlikely that they're both town.
As to the point about the pm hunting - I agree that azza mostly seems to be focusing in it, and as to jkaen/matt they're not really original cases are they?

I had previously stated that I thought Ryan to be slightly suspicious. Feel free to ignore that if it makes your case better though.

I hadn't noticed it, nor have I reread the thread.
It would really help if you gave reasons for your votes, rather then just giving them as one liners
Still here's all I could find from you:

. Q and Jkaen have been really sus, and to a lesser extent Ryan, uberfish and Gazglum are suspicious to me.

If there's more, I'm not seeing it.[quote].
Just because when I play scum I try to minimise my risk of dying doesn't mean that other people don't try to make complex or crazy plans.

I actually switched from Jkaen to Ryan. Just because I find you to be very suspicious doesn't mean I'm going to be blindsided by other people who look scummy.

Back to Jkaen because his claim seems too convenient.
[quote] Again, didn't realise it, but I don't see the relevance.
Also I want referring to your play there - in general scum don't do crazy stunts, and yet you were building arguments based on that.

[Gazglum]

Also, Azza, using your Mattimeo/Jkaen votes isn't a super convincing town defense, because you knew that any vote you made had a good chance of being switched by your puppetmaster regardless. In fact, you might have gambled that it would be because, having been given the power, what kind of Puppet Master could resist using it?

Not Ryan, apparently.

Fantastic. I think there's plenty of information to work through here. Good work village.

While I think you're suspicious, I know I could be wrong, and either way I would be interested in hearing you follow up this comment from the post-Matt lynch. Is there anything in particular from the First Day that you think we should look at? What is it about Ryan, Uberfish and me that you think is suspicious?

[Azza]

So how do you explain my vote for Jkaen?

It's true that I don't think you are both scum, I don't see how that would work. I am considering parallel hypotheses. It doesn't mean I'm letting Jkaen out of my sight, but I haven't loved your attacks against perceived and real puppetmasters.

Assuming that Ryan is the puppetmaster, which I think he must be, scum or town, how do you feel about Q now?

Still don't like him, would be happy to lynch him.

Or my vote for Mattimeo yesterday, for that matter?

If I was trying to kill the puppetmaster, wouldn't I be night killing one of the people who voted you mayor and targetting one of them on night 1?

Mattimeo could have been bussing. I kind of feel that nobody's vote on Mattimeo is that much of a town tell, because we went from 'too early for a vote to be dangerous' to 'Mattimeo looking like a certain lynch' pretty fast, and I can imagine scum voting for him at almost any point in the day for different reasons.

I concede your point about night-killing Ryan or Q, I hadn't thought of that. It does lessen my suspicion a bit. I do think that Lewwyn was second most confirmed village though, and so perhaps a more valuable target to kill.

As Zakalwe suggested, if you were scum, having a puppet master isn't necessarily that bad for you early on. It gives you voting cover, and you could still night kill. The danger would be in late-game when every vote counts, so trying to publically locate the puppet-master Day 2 could make sense.

I tried to publicly locate the puppetmaster day 1 as well. Does that make me suspicious as well?

Would a GM really give out an ability that took away someone's ability to impact the lynch? It's a pretty harsh penalty, that could heavily impact their enjoyment of the game. That's why I was asking before if there is a precedent for it in our games.

No precedent and it is indeed pretty harsh, although creative.

I think this line of thinking is what makes me uncomfortable about you Azza. I know that we're back in meta, and I apologise for that to people who dislike it. Maybe we should sign an agreement before next WW not to use it.

Anyway, the point is this: if you are town, Azza, then you have no autonomy. Nor do you have much way to regain your autonomy, except by lynching your master. If your master was scum, then I can see that working, because the 'correct' town game would see them lynched anyway, and so hopefully you would end up freeing yourself.

But if your master is town, and I think Ryan is (hope not to look back at this post and cry), then it seems really unfair for you. You have no autonomy, and no real way of getting it back. You can't kill Ryan, and the only way to regain your freedom is by mislynching Ryan. Which is bad for town.

I would be kind of pissed if we were given a negative ability which can only be raised damaging our chance to win.

But if you are scum and Ryan is town, the game makes sense. You are given a penalty, but -you- have the ability to free yourself by nightkilling or mislynching your master. It gives you something active to work towards, rather than forcing you to be passive the whole game. And in this case, freeing yourself becomes a dual success - it's a personal win, and it's also a win for your team.

If Ryan is town, then you being scum is better game design.

And what if Ryan isn't town? Then what? Your argument appears to be solely meta, with the assumption that Ryan is town. I thought we'd have learned by now that claiming when you should as villager doesn't make you town, but apparently not.

I'm not liking your play. Flimsy arguments on me, your vote on Jkaen was the obvious path of least resistance at the start of the day, your day 1 votes on Tasunke (easy target), Jkaen (under heavy suspicion) and Mattimeo (last on the wagon). The Mattimeo vote is interesting though.

Gazglum HE WILL FEED YOUR CHILDREN.

I am a humble man, but if the people call, I shall run. Gazglum.

Obviously I would be happy to be mayor. I am not a crook. But actually I still think we don't gain anything by mayor voting yet. Unless this deadline comes down to the wire, I think people should hold off until tomorrow before deciding on a mayor. If Mattimeo flips scum, then we will have very strong town-leans on some of the players that pushed him hard, and I would be happy to resign my candidacy in favour of one of them.

If we mistakenly elect a scum mayor now, inertia + scum buddy votes might make it harder to dislodge them later.

As for the lynches - I've caught up on the Neighbours fight now and my first thought is that it's going to be hilarious if they are both town.

I still have bad vibes from Jkaen, but I'll admit there isn't much to the case yet. Agree with Uber that Mattimeo has put up several red flags. I think the town/village debate does have weight. To summarise,

- I also got 'village' in my pm, as it seems did everyone else as nobody is admitting otherwise
- If Mattimeo was village and had got a misworded PM, he would surely be kicking up hell at the moment (rightly so) that he was going to be mislynched because of thestick's error. If he had just mis-typed his role name, wouldn't he at least be explaining that now?
- Instead, Mattimeo's last post just continues pushing suspicion against Novice. He's not even trying to defend against the wordplay argument. A villager on the edge of a mislynch should fight tooth and nail against every accusation, I'm not seeing that from Mattimeo. It feels more like the half-hearted defence of a wolf who knows they're going down.

Anyway, I agree that we'll learn more from Mattimeo hanging now. I don't like runaway votes, but half the game is asleep now and Azza could be flipped by his shadowy master, so at this point I'm willing to add my vote to Mattimeo.

Tasunke, Tasunke, my heart calls for thee...

I don't like how you pushed yourself for mayor, but that's not the main point. One of the reasons you put forward for lynching Mattimeo was that he wasn't defending himself. What a perfect reason to bus him! Gazglum

Having said that, I've changed my mind again.

Who was Lewwyn after the most? Jkaen. Who claimed to do something to Lewwyn last night? Jkaen. When someone is pushing that hard for someone, and they end up dead, boy oh boy it looks suspicious. Jkaen

[Jkaen]

Ok, since everybody else doesn't think Azzas contribution to the argument agaisnt Mattimeo was as big as I creditted it, and that was the only thing stopping him appear very scummy, plus the fact its probably my best self defense vote for today, I guess despite what I said earlier my vote goes there.

This does mean I think Ryan's reveal is village leaning and that gazglums meta case has merit

Azza

[Jkaen]

...your vote on Jkaen was the obvious path of least resistance...

Having said that, I've changed my mind again.

Who was Lewwyn after the most? Jkaen. Who claimed to do something to Lewwyn last night? Jkaen. When someone is pushing that hard for someone, and they end up dead, boy oh boy it looks suspicious. Jkaen

Now isn't that a convienient coincidence

[Gazglum]

And what if Ryan isn't town? Then what? Your argument appears to be solely meta, with the assumption that Ryan is town. I thought we'd have learned by now that claiming when you should as villager doesn't make you town, but apparently not.

Well, first off, I absolutely concede this is a meta argument. I think Jkaen is scummier vote/post wise. I do think the meta argument against you is quite strong though, IF you assume Ryan is town.

And really, at the moment, I do. As you value gut instinct highly Azza, I offer that. But also:

- he dropped hints about being puppetmaster from the start, before owning it. I can see a scum puppetmaster coming right out with it and claiming town, I feel like Ryan's method of hinting at it before making a full disclosure isn't how a scum would play it. It risked drawing attention, without gaining anything.
- he confessed at the point when you were attacking Q over it, rather than keeping quiet.
- he used his (effective) double votes to make me mayor, and I know I am town. Admittedly, this isn't a tell that anybody else can utilise.

So I don't think my argument is inherently flimsy, just meta-based. And you haven't addressed the meta side.

As for the Mattimeo vote, I don't quite get your point. It was his anemic defence that made me vote him, as I said then. I thought it was extremely anti-town to not even try and defend himself against the arguments levelled against him, if he really was village. I couldn't really imagine someone going down so quietly if they were being mislynched because of a mistake made by the GM.

Having said that, of course the timing was right for it to be a bussing vote, but I don't think that makes my reasoning unsound. And I wanted to pile on because I knew your vote could be changed to Jkaen, and Mattimeo could change to Jkaen too. And at that point I thought Mattimeo made a better case than Jkaen.


However, as you know I do agree with you that Jkaen is scummy. I do think that a town puppet/town puppetmaster seems unlikely, especially in a town lineup that already looks power-weak, but it is a meta case.

I'd like to hear Novice/Zak/Uber's thoughts.

[zakalwe]

And what if Ryan isn't town? Then what?

Then at least we're removing his double vote. Not much of a consolation prize, but it's something.

That said, I agree with Azza that we shouldn't be so quick to shower Ryan with town points just for doing "the right thing". At least, I still want him to elaborate on what exactly he was trying to achieve on day 1. I really don't get the "half-hearted" attempt to lynch Jkaen. Either you go for it, or not. Why pass the buck to others whose alignment you don't know?