WW22 - Diaries of the Madmen

[zakalwe]

Actually as I write that I think it really should be obvious to scum that Mattimeo is going down the minute I claim. Lewwyn is on him, Uberfish is and if he's scum he can't credibly switch, I'm on him, and the reason I'm on him is surely the answers Mattimeo gave to my quizzing in the neighbour thread, so the shit must be about to hit the fan.

So what is everybody's opinion on this?

Did everything in the neigbor thread take place before you made your claim? I thought some of the quizzing happened after that. You only said he had been overly paranoid when you claimed.

[Azza]

I was refering tot he fact he bashes somebody for taking the easy path onto me, then does exactly the same himself.

If he admitted it was some sort of defensive vote then fair enough, but all he did is state I feel scummy and in general all people are doing are refering to my voting record, which I have to point out reads 1-0 right now

Just because dead man Lewwyn found me suspicious shouldnt be enough to vote on, its a fairly common go by his radar doesn't work properly till day 3 anyway.

So to state again, I really dont see a case on me

Night killing a very vocal villager who's as good as locked on to a member of the mafia is a pretty standard ploy.

Actually its a pretty dumb one as if I did it as scum I would be guaranteeing attention today

But you'd have even more attention if Lewwyn was still alive. It's not like he'd just drop it.

[Jkaen]

Actually I would hope he would be capable of changing his mind, something he obviously cannot announce if he has now

[Qgqqqqq]

So how do you explain my vote for Jkaen?

It's true that I don't think you are both scum, I don't see how that would work. I am considering parallel hypotheses. It doesn't mean I'm letting Jkaen out of my sight, but I haven't loved your attacks against perceived and real puppetmasters.

Assuming that Ryan is the puppetmaster, which I think he must be, scum or town, how do you feel about Q now?

Still don't like him, would be happy to lynch him.

Please give some reasons. You've only stated once,and never tried to give us a catch-up on whats changed, just written "see earlier."
Tell me what you feel now, and try to argue it so you're ideas aren't lost in the threead.
It may be related to you're role, but the way you've acted feels like theres no impetious - your not arguing for a lynch, you're just stagnant, letting people wax lyrically without contributing/arguing for a lynch.
You keep saying you have a bunch of suspects - me, ryan, jkaen etc. so argue for them, build a case!
As is it feels very uninvolved and is one of the reasons I'm votying you.
[Sorry for tangent]

I tried to publicly locate the puppetmaster day 1 as well. Does that make me suspicious as well?

Not addressed to me, but I disliked you're looking there - its focussed too much on seeking them out, rather then scumhunting.
Granted you think the two are one and the same, but the meta fallback was too easy.

And what if Ryan isn't town? Then what? Your argument appears to be solely meta, with the assumption that Ryan is town. I thought we'd have learned by now that claiming when you should as villager doesn't make you town, but apparently not.

I'm not liking your play. Flimsy arguments on me, your vote on Jkaen was the obvious path of least resistance at the start of the day, your day 1 votes on Tasunke (easy target), Jkaen (under heavy suspicion) and Mattimeo (last on the wagon). The Mattimeo vote is interesting though.

I agree, gazglum's play has felt a bit weak, bit stronger today IMO though.

Having said that, I've changed my mind again.

1:Who was Lewwyn after the most? Jkaen. 2Who claimed to do something to Lewwyn last night? Jkaen. 3When someone is pushing that hard for someone, and they end up dead, boy oh boy it looks suspicious. Jkaen

This is another one of my pet peeves - the idea that you carry on a players crusade after they're dead.
Firstly, assume NOTHING about why scum kill - it could be a whole range of things, and I don't think its strong enough to be their reason to kill lewwyn as too many other people were (and are) on jkaen and villagers are always quick to draw links (as you have done).
Secondly, its too easy - you're jumping on a bandwagon someone else created.
But you know that anyway azza
Still lets look at your points:
1: framing. Also examined earlier.
2. Why is this relevant? If Jkaen is scum thewn another tracker coming forward basically kills him. If not, why does it matter that he visited lewwyn, as why would it come up?
3. Yes it does. Surely you see why that doesn't strengthen this line of enquiry...

That said, I agree with Azza that we shouldn't be so quick to shower Ryan with town points just for doing "the right thing". At least, I still want him to elaborate on what exactly he was trying to achieve on day 1. I really don't get the "half-hearted" attempt to lynch Jkaen. Either you go for it, or not. Why pass the buck to others whose alignment you don't know?

Agree.
I just don't giove scum points to him as PM because of the way it was claimed, and think he is villager outside of that occurrence.
The events at lynch are a bit strange, but Ryan does some weird things, and has some weird meta ideas as to how to behave.

I was refering tot he fact he bashes somebody for taking the easy path onto me, then does exactly the same himself.

If he admitted it was some sort of defensive vote then fair enough, but all he did is state I feel scummy and in general all people are doing are refering to my voting record, which I have to point out reads 1-0 right now

Just because dead man Lewwyn found me suspicious shouldnt be enough to vote on, its a fairly common go by his radar doesn't work properly till day 3 anyway.

So to state again, I really dont see a case on me

Night killing a very vocal villager who's as good as locked on to a member of the mafia is a pretty standard ploy.

A day 1 read is hardly locked in - I really doubt he'd stay on him forever...

I was almost going to give you town points for reminding us of that, but a scum-team of Mattimeo, Jkaen and Ryan would have no choice but to let Mattimeo get killed. Try and save him, Jkaen gets killed instead. Push the novice lynch, when he turns up innocent Mattimeo probably gets lynched day 2 and there's a huge trail to follow. So it's a null tell in the end.

Yeah but NEVER base these theories on a x+y+z=scum.
Its too elaborate, arrogant, and very rarely correct.


Apologies for length, the thread exploded for some reason...

[Qgqqqqq]

Did everything in the neigbor thread take place before you made your claim? I thought some of the quizzing happened after that. You only said he had been overly paranoid when you claimed.

I don't think so?
That wasn't my read of it...

[novice]

Actually as I write that I think it really should be obvious to scum that Mattimeo is going down the minute I claim. Lewwyn is on him, Uberfish is and if he's scum he can't credibly switch, I'm on him, and the reason I'm on him is surely the answers Mattimeo gave to my quizzing in the neighbour thread, so the shit must be about to hit the fan.

So what is everybody's opinion on this?

Did everything in the neigbor thread take place before you made your claim? I thought some of the quizzing happened after that. You only said he had been overly paranoid when you claimed.

Nothing was posted in the neighbour thread after I claimed.

[novice]

Gazglum

[Azza]

So how do you explain my vote for Jkaen?

It's true that I don't think you are both scum, I don't see how that would work. I am considering parallel hypotheses. It doesn't mean I'm letting Jkaen out of my sight, but I haven't loved your attacks against perceived and real puppetmasters.

Assuming that Ryan is the puppetmaster, which I think he must be, scum or town, how do you feel about Q now?

Still don't like him, would be happy to lynch him.

Please give some reasons. You've only stated once,and never tried to give us a catch-up on whats changed, just written "see earlier."
Tell me what you feel now, and try to argue it so you're ideas aren't lost in the threead.

I still think miller should be lynched. You were defending Mattimeo with the Mattimeo v novice thing and were unwilling to change your vote when IMO it became clear Mattimeo was scum. You brought up Tasunke an hour before lynch in what I can only see as a last minute attempt to create a late wagon off Mattimeo. That's what I can remember off the top of my head.

It may be related to you're role, but the way you've acted feels like theres no impetious - your not arguing for a lynch, you're just stagnant, letting people wax lyrically without contributing/arguing for a lynch.
You keep saying you have a bunch of suspects - me, ryan, jkaen etc. so argue for them, build a case!
As is it feels very uninvolved and is one of the reasons I'm votying you.
[Sorry for tangent]

So you're voting for me because my role dictates that I have no real influence over the lynch. Words are not my strength, nor is being persuasive. I put my ideas out there, see if people agree or disagree. Unlike my scum games, I am putting a lot of ideas out there, and frequently changing my mind without any external stimulation.

I tried to publicly locate the puppetmaster day 1 as well. Does that make me suspicious as well?

Not addressed to me, but I disliked you're looking there - its focussed too much on seeking them out, rather then scumhunting.
Granted you think the two are one and the same, but the meta fallback was too easy.

My role means I'm a villager without my vote. My only weapon to catch the scum, and it's controlled by someone else. How do you think I'm going to play when I'm literally powerless to lynch the scum?

Having said that, I've changed my mind again.

1:Who was Lewwyn after the most? Jkaen. 2Who claimed to do something to Lewwyn last night? Jkaen. 3When someone is pushing that hard for someone, and they end up dead, boy oh boy it looks suspicious. Jkaen

This is another one of my pet peeves - the idea that you carry on a players crusade after they're dead.
Firstly, assume NOTHING about why scum kill - it could be a whole range of things, and I don't think its strong enough to be their reason to kill lewwyn as too many other people were (and are) on jkaen and villagers are always quick to draw links (as you have done).
Secondly, its too easy - you're jumping on a bandwagon someone else created.
But you know that anyway azza
Still lets look at your points:
1: framing. Also examined earlier.
2. Why is this relevant? If Jkaen is scum thewn another tracker coming forward basically kills him. If not, why does it matter that he visited lewwyn, as why would it come up?
3. Yes it does. Surely you see why that doesn't strengthen this line of enquiry...

So, earlier, you were criticizing me for assuming the scum would play differently than I would, now you're criticizing me for assuming the scum would play as I would. What exactly do you want from me?

Yes, it's possible he is being framed. What I want to know is why would the mafia frame someone who they would probably think they can mislynch without framing them?

Why can't the tracker be scum? And a watcher could've potentially been watching Lewwyn last night, so they might've seen Jkaen visiting Lewwyn.

That said, I agree with Azza that we shouldn't be so quick to shower Ryan with town points just for doing "the right thing". At least, I still want him to elaborate on what exactly he was trying to achieve on day 1. I really don't get the "half-hearted" attempt to lynch Jkaen. Either you go for it, or not. Why pass the buck to others whose alignment you don't know?

Agree.
I just don't giove scum points to him as PM because of the way it was claimed, and think he is villager outside of that occurrence.
The events at lynch are a bit strange, but Ryan does some weird things, and has some weird meta ideas as to how to behave.

I was refering tot he fact he bashes somebody for taking the easy path onto me, then does exactly the same himself.

If he admitted it was some sort of defensive vote then fair enough, but all he did is state I feel scummy and in general all people are doing are refering to my voting record, which I have to point out reads 1-0 right now

Just because dead man Lewwyn found me suspicious shouldnt be enough to vote on, its a fairly common go by his radar doesn't work properly till day 3 anyway.

So to state again, I really dont see a case on me

Night killing a very vocal villager who's as good as locked on to a member of the mafia is a pretty standard ploy.

A day 1 read is hardly locked in - I really doubt he'd stay on him forever...

Just because it's a day 1 read doesn't mean it was wrong.

I was almost going to give you town points for reminding us of that, but a scum-team of Mattimeo, Jkaen and Ryan would have no choice but to let Mattimeo get killed. Try and save him, Jkaen gets killed instead. Push the novice lynch, when he turns up innocent Mattimeo probably gets lynched day 2 and there's a huge trail to follow. So it's a null tell in the end.

Yeah but NEVER base these theories on a x+y+z=scum.
Its too elaborate, arrogant, and very rarely correct.


Apologies for length, the thread exploded for some reason...

Hence why I'm not voting for Ryan? I think Jkaen is most suspicious independent of Ryan's potential suspicion. Lynching Jkaen helps resolve whether Ryan is sus though, which is a bonus. If Jkaen flips innocent, then we probably have 2 semi-confirmed villagers in novice and Ryan, plus me who I know is innocent.

[Qgqqqqq]

Azza, I really think we're seeing a communication breakdown here - you're seeing me push things and not seeing the crux of what I'm saying.
Previously I was geyyying a little annoyed because I thought you were being deliberately obtuse - sorry!
Anyway, I'm off my computer so this may take a few posts:

you're ideas aren't lost in the threead.

I still think miller should be lynched. You were defending Mattimeo with the Mattimeo v novice thing and were unwilling to change your vote when IMO it became clear Mattimeo was scum. You brought up Tasunke an hour before lynch in what I can only see as a last minute attempt to create a late wagon off Mattimeo. That's what I can remember off the top of my head

Difference of opinion - I didn't think matt was the most suspicious of the two.
I dealt with tasunke earlier - to whit that the idea of a late train is ridiculous, I was the only one voting him at a time when people had locked in their votes on a suspect.
If anything, it was against the idea of saving matt, as a jkaen lunch wasclearly preferable to the public.
I think that this centres a little too much on the idea that I'm guilty because I disagreed with the matt lynch, which ignores the bussing factor, and isn't a very accurate account of events (I wasn't really defending actively, just saying I wasn't understanding/agreeing with the case).
Not sure what the miller comments about...

[Qgqqqqq]

So you're voting for me because my role dictates that I have no real influence over the lynch. Words are not my strength, nor is being persuasive. I put my ideas out there, see if people agree or disagree. Unlike my scum games, I am putting a lot of ideas out there, and frequently changing my mind without any external stimulation.

Yeah you've misread what I was saying there - I'm saying that I dislike your play because you aren't getting involved it arguingmaking a case on your suspicions instead just gliding along with the action.
This isn't necessarily because of your role, but I was thinking it might be related as it makes you feel without power.
I would say that your play is by no means scum/town - you never play like you are at the moment (when you were last village in ww18 I think you were lurkering too), which is good as I prefer it, and helps more, but doesn't clear you either way.
I think it would help a lot if you tried to push someone rather then just throwing out suspicions - I find that suspicious as it means you can just wait for people to catch on or not, and aren't connected to (potential) mislynches as much.