RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

mh sent a brief message about techs ... still no input from him in reply to my settling e-mail:

Hi Dreylin,

I am on my way to Metal casting next.
May I ask what you are researching to evaluate the next possible tech trade?

mh

Hey mh,

I'm part of the way to Civil Service at the moment - was ~8t left when
I last had the game, but that should have speeded up now I have
Currency! 8-)

Dreylin II.

I decided to be equally brief - no way I want to be the next one touching the land-rights issue - but helpful as always to try and show him that I still want to cooperate. I assume that the Curr/CoL trade went through.

I'm not certain, but with his popped borders I suspect he may be able to see my Settler sitting on the Purple Dot site waiting to found. I may have to test that this evening, as I'm not that familiar with the LoS rules.

[Dreylin]

t62 - No initial pop-ups, but I note that Aesthetics & Currency trades have gone through; excellent. An Archer has appeared in Vienna, but no Settler in sight; I think that makes me safe for both spots, so I go ahead and found Bursa on Purple Dot.



Mike moves W to start a new road before chop/mining for Istanbul. Brian will complete his grass river cottage next turn, and contribute a chop to complete the Settler.

Shuffling units in the centre and West, and the NE Chariot moves towards the Easternmost point of the Back Country to see what's across the pond. Western Chariot moves deeper into mh's territory - lots of border clashing in the area between him and athlete.

sooooo built The Hanging Gardens & got a Great Engineer this turn - I'm not sure whether he used one to complete the other, but either way he's doing rather well right now.

[Dreylin]

t63 - Trading: Ruff requests Priesthood & Archery, I accept then request Sailing from athlete. I forget to send an in-game reminder to Ruf to offer Calendar on his next turn - will have to do it out of game.

Lots of Worker stuff going on; Tim completes another section of the Rohan Highway, and Twist moves up to help him next turn. Daisy completes a Cottage at Edirne, while Brian completes a Chop/Cottage at Istanbul - neither can be worked yet, but are there for later (actually the one at Istanbul can be worked by the Pig/Rice/Copper city location). Mike starts a road before chop/mining his hill, and Marcia moves onto the Iron to start mining next turn.

The chop at Istanbul completes the Settler next turn, while at Edirne I hire a Scientist for a turn to prevent growth - the HA will complete next turn and then I'll switch to a Worker and fire the Scientist again. (Research time on CS reduces from 6t to 5t from the extra commerce, so will be discovered on t68. Anakara adjusts tile to maximise production, as does Bursa.

Settler heading for Orange Dot is still on track for founding t66, and no sign of anything from mh's side.

[Dreylin]

Chatting with Ruff about tech, gold & cricket:

Ruff.Hi: I meant to buzz you about the trade request

me: np, I accepted

Ruff.Hi: hopefully you pick up sailing and then we can complete our CoL Calendar deal
thx

me: You should be able to offer CoL/Calendar next turn

Ruff.Hi: ok - will look for it

me: assuming athlete accepts my request for Sailing

Ruff.Hi: what are you currently teching? CS?

me: yep

Ruff.Hi: ok, interested in trading Theology plus a beaker IOU?

me: sounds like mh got shafted

Ruff.Hi: again?
how so?

me: let me think aout that
well by the HG/overflow
thing

Ruff.Hi: oh - are you talking about the THG
personally, I think he mis-clicked and someone forwarded the wrong save

me: I agree

Ruff.Hi: I have never seen that error in a PBEM game

me: (said as much in the thread)

Ruff.Hi: best way to test it is to play a PBEM game (or a hotseat) by your self

me: He should have put a flag down on the re-play
to be certain he got the correct save back

I also got the next site he was aiming to settle

Ruff.Hi: theology (500) v CS (800) is quite a stretch - one of the downsides of picking up a big tech

me: so he's probably a very unhappy bunny

Ruff.Hi: really - you participating in a land grab at the moment

me: Yep
Holding off on buildings until I get into OrgRel

Ruff.Hi: I must check how many cities everyone has when it gets back to me

me: so building Settlers, Workers & Military

Ruff.Hi: fair enough

me: Think it' about 4-each
(maybe only three for mh)

Ruff.Hi: BTW: sooooo and I have a side bet (to be settled with civ4 gold) regarding the Ashes

me: Hehe
About how badly England will lose?

Ruff.Hi: no - its straight up
no odds given or asked

me: Small sum though, right?

Ruff.Hi: 20g per test, 30g on the series

me: ooooo

Ruff.Hi: so, if someone wins 5-0 ... that is 130g
which is actually a fair bit - but fun

me: That should be a nice little earner for you

Ruff.Hi: I hope so
actually - if sooooo is playing a SE, then gold will be harder to come by for him
than a cottage economy

me: True

Ruff.Hi: anyway - think about theology / CS and what else you would need
I will be asking for a NO BUILD AP restriction too

me: What about HS?

Ruff.Hi: HS?

me: Hagia Sofia

Ruff.Hi: oh
note for future: must not trade to Sooooo
don't care
don't want him landing another GE wonder

me: Yeah

Ruff.Hi: thx for reminding me
must tread carefully with that one

me: I'm probably going to hold off trading CS to most people
- at least until they can pay nearly full-price
BTW, that would raise your debt to 350b


Ruff.Hi: how long until you have it? where are you going next?

me: ~5t, I think
Currency helped

Ruff.Hi: yeah

me: still thinking about where next
(will need to save some gold)

Ruff.Hi: oh really - starting to run into expense issues?

me: I'm guessing that sooooo will either go Construction or Music
may make a run for Music if he doesn't

Ruff.Hi: we are ripping up this tech tree

me: Quick, plus cooperative research / trading
Some expense issues
spamming cities out will have that effect

Ruff.Hi: yes
btw - how many workers do you have?

me: also nearing the end of my Hut gold stash

Ruff.Hi: I have 5 at the moment
I only landed about 80g from huts
and only got about 4 or 5 of them

me: Yeah, but you're probably still in +ve gold from your GP

Ruff.Hi: no, small negative

me: Wait, we both have Currency now

Ruff.Hi: only 3 cities - soon to be 5

me: so gold can be exchanged instead of IOUs

Ruff.Hi: yeah - I think I had close to the highest gold
oh - true
what is a suitable exchange rate?

me: iirc we had about the same

Ruff.Hi: 50ish?

me: 50ish = what?

Ruff.Hi: how much gold we both had / have
what is a suiltable beaker / gold exchange rate?

me: more like 75
don't know
we're talking in Normal beakers

Ruff.Hi: any suggestions regarding working it out?

me: but the game is Quick

Ruff.Hi: how about this ...
if you can research 500 (normal) beakers in 10 turns, and that costs you 10g per turn (100g in total), then does that mean that 500b = 100g?
I would think that is a bit light

me: It seems like it

Ruff.Hi: but I don't think that 500b = 500g

me: certainly not

Ruff.Hi: sell 1 tech and you can research flat out for 50 turns
lets throw this out to the group and see if we can reach a consensus
have meeting - got to run

me: Of couse it also changes based on the gold / beaker multipliers in your cities
OK
chat later

Need to put some thought into the AP ... clearly he's going to be in his newly-founded Christianity when he builds the AP, so I think I'll want to secure a Christian Missionary from him so that I have the option of spreading it to gain the hammer bonus from religious buildings. OTOH, that may allow AP vote silliness to occur, so I might want to re-think that.

I probably need to sit down and have a proper look at the game over the next couple of days and start planning out what I'm going to do after the revolt. What building where, how to keep expansion going, etc.

I have some ideas already:

Istanbul will build some Military (probably Archers) after the current Settler finishes since it is on the verge of Growth.
Edirne will switch to a Worker (or maybe a Settler depending on build-time) after the HA completes.

Once OrgRel is in, both will probably whip Hammans in and then Istanbul may go to Units or a Wonder, while Edirne starts churning out Missionaries.

Ankara needs some Worker attention which it hasn't got to-date (nor will it benefit from OrgRel until I get Hinduism in there), so will probably build Workers and/or military.

Bursa is going to Military after the Granary is up, and Orange Dot may go either for Military or Commerce.

I also need to take another look and confirm which city I want to settle next; will probably be the Dot nearest to Istanbul (reduced maintenance + nice site) but the dot S of Edirne would also be useful at this point.

By my reckoning, there are 5 more location which I want to settle fairly quickly ... and that after the existing 6! (there's another 2-4 infill locations after that).

[Dreylin]

A further chat:

Ruff.Hi: Dreylin - I've done some calculations and got some lurker feedback ... how would you feel about 200g for 350b?
...
oh wait - I was using normal beakers in my calculation ... will need to recalculate
...
ok - recalculating and fixing an error that ZPV pointed out, how about 150g?
...
me: So do you plan to release these calculations / considerations to the rest of us, o keep them locked up in your thread....
(good way to catch up on the post count BTW)
...
Ruff.Hi: sorry - internet died on my
me

me: np
150g does sound good
but I'd like to see some of the calculations / behind the numbers

Ruff.Hi: did you get any of that that I sent?

me: I got three estimates

Ruff.Hi: 350g = 309 in-game beakers

me: about 30mins apart each

Ruff.Hi: I can generate 309 in-game beakers in 4.05 turns
4.05 turns @ 0% science is 150g
that was my calculations

me: But those beakers generated are tech-dependant, right?
with pre-reqs, etc.

Ruff.Hi: yes

me: and expenses
(or is the 309 in 4t at break-even?)

Ruff.Hi: 309 in 4t at 100%
which I can still do for another 8 turns before having to dial down
gee - no slipping anything past you, is there?

me: Surely that's what you want in an ally.
But your rate will change as you settle more cities, and is not even necessarily comparable to mine....

Ruff.Hi: totally not compariable to yours
you should work out the same based on your situation and then will give us 2 numbers

me: (Argh)

Ruff.Hi: how much I want to pay
how much you want to get
then we haggle

me: Aren't we doing that already!?

Ruff.Hi: well - haven't heard your number yet

me: Can't do that until this evening....
~3hrs

Ruff.Hi: [hand cupped behind ear ...]
oh - and I found my iron
after trading with Athlete

me: Nice & close?

Ruff.Hi: yes - very close

me: or as awkward as you Pre-Calendar happy?

Ruff.Hi: and well protected too

me: Nice
Similar to my Horses

Ruff.Hi: yeah

me: So you're going for the AP
assume Christianity, right?

Ruff.Hi: are you going to swap that 150b IOU (from Athlete) into gold too?
I really should have thought to convert that to gold my self

me: not planning any "I win the game" hi-jinks, I hope

Ruff.Hi: AP - nice for the hammers

me: Actually, I converted it into Sailing

Ruff.Hi: and fun with the diplo too
now I just need to trick someone into voting me to victory
[oops - did I say that out loud]

me: Hmmmmmm
So Christianity, or one of mine?

Ruff.Hi: Christianity - well, it depends if you can get a religion to my capital

me: Of course i /can/
but maybe not on your timline

Ruff.Hi: but prob not soon enough
given that you cannot even build missionaries yet!!!

me: I could
if I built a Monastery first
(but that's not worthwhile until I'm in OrgRel anyway)
Oh, you proposed the CoL/Calendar trade, right?

Ruff.Hi: yes - who builds buildings when not running OrgRel - total waste of hammers
I did

me: Excellent

Ruff.Hi: should be waiting in-game for you

me: Do we have trade routes yet?

Ruff.Hi: no idea
maybe now that your E city has popped a border and includes the river
and stolen one of my tiles (

me: Should do now I have Sailing, right?
Yeah sorry about that
not much I can do

Ruff.Hi: nope
I just have to cross my fingers that Christianity goes into DV
would totally rock!

me: Don't you go stealing my tiles now!


Ruff.Hi: I'll wait until you put a cottage on it

me: It's a plains tile isn't it?
that I can't work
(Not Templars over here)

Ruff.Hi: ok - then put a watermill on it

me: Hmmmmm
OK

Ruff.Hi: don't worry about

me: Once RP comes in

Ruff.Hi: don't have to wait that long
mechinary - +1F,+1H (IIRC)

me: Oh yeah

[Dreylin]

t64 - Whelp, here goes another turn. Calendar/CoL deal from Ruff - accepted! Istanbul completes Settler, switches to max-growth and starts Archer (2t). Edirne completes HA, starts Settler - due in 6t, but will speed with a forest chop - Daisy moves to the forest 2NW of the city - now due in 4t.

New Settler moves W from Istanbul towards Pigs/Copper/Rice spot. Brian moves W and starts a cottage for the city. In the centre, Marcia starts mining the Iron, while in the West Tim & Twist work on connecting up the new cities.

Exploring Warrior keeps going NE out of sooooo's land, while Chariot ventures deeper into mh's lands and finds Prague (with FPs). New HA heads West towards the Barb city.

City counts are:

sooooo = 5
everyone else = 4

However I do have 2 settlers in-transit and one more due in 4t.

Trade routes in place - mostly with sooooo - and can see that sooooo has Stone hooked up. Hmmmmm.

Tech-wise I'm still up on everyone, even if not by much, while demogs look decent as well - 2nd in most categories.

As far as the beaker-rate / gold discussion with Ruff goes, it seems like I can also research around 309 in 4t (using Construction & Feudalism as benchmarks), but I get +46g/t for a total of 184g in 4t. The interesting thing about this is that it means Ruff has more Libraries (more beaker multipliers) than I do, so less raw commerce.

[Dreylin]

So a further chat with Ruff about the potential tech trade:

Ruff.Hi: so - did you do your gold calculations?

me: Yep 185.

Ruff.Hi: ok, so we agree on 150 then

me: Er
maybe not
I thought we were going to haggle?

Ruff.Hi: ok ...
you know I have to feed 4 kids on this ...
150g will let me tech at 100% for 20 turns or more

me: and it'll let me research at 10t; your point?

Ruff.Hi: I don't know

me: lol

Ruff.Hi: you are going to end up with more cities than me, aren't you

me: Until you take sooooo's, most likely

Ruff.Hi: how about Theology + 160g for CS and a no building of the AP
will you chase the other wonder?

me: what'd it be worth to you...?

Ruff.Hi: nothing
what do I get out of it?

me: it doesn't go to sooooo

Ruff.Hi: because if you are, I can hold theology back from sooooo for a while

me: tangent: how many turns to Theo?

Ruff.Hi: 3 or 4
3 I think

me: thing is; Theo isn't really that useful
once religion & AP are gone

Ruff.Hi: ok, np

me: How about....
Theo, 100g & you build the AP in one of my religions....
rather than Christianity

Ruff.Hi: only have Conf in DV ... not planning to build missionary there for a while
get free missionary that I can spread to capital with christianty

me: sure
I can build a Missionary for you

Ruff.Hi: and will you vote for me as pope?

me: but not before you'd be building the AP. (on reflection)
AP leader, yes
Victory, no

Ruff.Hi: victory - NO (at the moment )

me:
Um you'd be starting AP straight away, right?

Ruff.Hi: hmm - I wonder if the AP religion is the religion you are in when you START the wonder or when you FINISH the wonder

me: Time to consult WB?

Ruff.Hi: if it is FINISH, then you will have some extra turns to get missionary to capital
INDEED!

me: Finish, I think

Ruff.Hi: me too

me: Well, it'd be 5t before I start

Ruff.Hi: will you trade theology for CS up front with 100g to come when I get it?
and I will run 0% science until I do

me: Give you 1t to get the free Christian back to Cap
Including the religion clause?

Ruff.Hi: yes

me: How many turns to get a missionry from DV to cap?

Ruff.Hi: summary: CS for Theology up front
100g to Dreylin when I get it
I will delay AP for 3 turns giving you time to CONFUSE my capital

me: (meaning you accumulate gold until you have 100g, then gift it in one chunk?)

Ruff.Hi: after that, I will finish it at Christian
yes to 1 trade of 100g

me: rather than a 10t at 10gpt?

Ruff.Hi: no - I'll forget to cancel it

me: So what would be my turn limit to confuse your capital?

Ruff.Hi: I'll tell you once I have started the AP,

me: not if you leave a note for yourself in-game
But I'm easy either way
In Cap
with Bureau, correct?

Ruff.Hi: yes
and 2 chops too

me: Hmmmm

Ruff.Hi: that are currently under way
(all of this assuming that the WB test works out as we expect it to)

me: Ah, new pitboss turn btw

Ruff.Hi: yay
so, do we have an agreement?
actually - can you summarize this in an email and I will run a WB test tomorrow morning on train re AP

me: Give me a minute to guesstimate how likely I could get a Missionary there
Sure

Ruff.Hi: I estimate that it will take me 8 turns to complete the AP once I start it

me: Instinctively, that seems like plenty

Ruff.Hi: Theology in 2 turns (checked game)assuming
assuming it takes me 2 turns to run christian missionary to capital ... that gives you 12 turns to confuse my capital
include the 3 turn buffer as per above ... 15 turns

me: by t80 then

Ruff.Hi: yes - something like that
could be 79

me: How's your road network?

Ruff.Hi: you move missionary into my territory, exhaust his movements and then gift him and we get an extra turns movement
pretty good now thx

me: kind-of, yeah

Ruff.Hi: can you summarize in email and I will email you back later ...

me: OK, so how many turns from DV to cap?

Ruff.Hi: going to watch TV with the wife - see ya

me: Yep, sure

Ruff.Hi: 2 or 3

me: OK, have fun!

Ruff.Hi: you too

[Dreylin]

Well I'm not entirely sure I thought it through before making the suggestion, but having Ruff create the AP in one of my religions (a) guarantees I don't have to get hold of Christinaity, (b) means Ruff will preferably spread it, © means others will be more interested in getting hold of it.

So with the current deal it costs me 60g & 26h for the missionary. I think that's probably an OK deal.

Right, so will it be possible for me to get a Missionary there in time. Calculations say yes:

t65 - Settler in 5t
t66 - Settler in 4t
t67 - Settler in 3t
t68 - Settler in 1t (chop) 3h overflow / CS completes interturn
t69 - Anarchy
t70 - Missionary in 3t (8h + 3 = 11)
t71 - Missionary in 2t (8h + 11 = 19)
t72 - Missionary in 1t (8h + 19 = 27)
t73 - Missionary complete - moves to disputed Plains tile (1)
t74 - Missionary moves (2)
t75 - Missionary moves (3)
t76 - Missionary moves (4)
t77 - Missionary moves (5)
t78 - Missionary moves (6) reaches Capital w/ movement remaining

Distance to Ruff's capital is based on him having a complete road link and the existing road link between us. The link between us is not great, but due to the shape of the river can't be improved enough to make a difference.

[Dreylin]

Proposal formalised and sent to Ruff:

Ruff,

As discussed this evening and subject to confirmation via Worldbuilder:

Dreylin agrees to trade Civil Service for Theology on t69 (CS completes after my t68)
Ruff agrees to run 0% science until 100g has been accumulated and then gift it to Dreylin (~t70 based on previous estimations)
Dreylin will supply Ruff with a Confucian Missionary (t73 or t74 depending on border alignment) which is to be used to spread Confucianism in Founder's Folly* (by my estimation, this will be possible on t78)
Ruff will convert to Confucianism before completing the build of the Apolstolic Palace.
Dreylin agrees to vote for Ruff as AP Resident until such time as it becomes obsolete, however will vote as desired on other issues.

* If first Confucian missionary fails to spread religion, Dreylin will supply one replacement within 10t; all other clauses remain in effect.

[I felt there needed to be a clause to cover the event of a failed religion spread agreed to up-front, let me know if you think it's acceptable.]

Dreylin II.

[zakalwe]

So it is not sufficient to just convert to confucianism state religion before completing the AP?