WW22 - Diaries of the Madmen

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm liking zaks play today - jkaen what is the loss in not claiming your night target?
How do we know that Ryan or uberfish didn't draw the block?
Or even zak - if we know that you were blocked then we can tell that other players like zak weren't blocked, meaning we can have greater knowledge about what happened in the night.

Oh and zak?
Why would my miller claim be more or less believable based on the appearance or lack thereof a seer?
As scum I wouldn't know either way, as village we've established that they are included without seers.

[Qgqqqqq]

Ryan I agree with zak - your behaviour is incredibly anti town at the moment.
Discuss! Talk about your suspicions! Don't just set yourself on zak based off past grudges.

[Ryan]

So Q is the second scum :P , Ive played with u scum a game to know when your scum :P

[Qgqqqqq]

Yes and that works all the time
Seriously Ryan, can't you take advice without going OMGUS

I've played with you, azza, Lewwyn, tasunke, Gaspar and rowain as scum, and it doesn't help me guess when any of you are scum .

[zakalwe]

Oh and zak?
Why would my miller claim be more or less believable based on the appearance or lack thereof a seer?
As scum I wouldn't know either way, as village we've established that they are included without seers.

My assumption is still that millers occur more frequently in games with seers than in games without seers. Granted, that may not actually true if you just look at the local WW history here at RB. But the only reason to include a miller without a seer is to discourage metagaming. And if Ryan is innocent then we already have a town/town puppet/puppeteer pair to serve that purpose.

You wouldn't know if we had a seer when you made the claim, but that's kind of the point. If genuine millers occur less frequently in games without seers, then a miller claim in one of those games is more likely to be fake.

[uberfish]

Zak actually has a valid point on the miller claim. We've had one game (mine) that included a miller (Vegetarian Werewolf) without a seer, and there was still a role that used it the werewolf status as a discriminator. Furthermore, it was specifically a Weird Roles game. This game isn't and it already has a village post restrictor, village puppet and (90%+) village puppetmaster to sow confusion. Does it really need a miller without seer too?

btw, the lack of a seer is also a point in favour of Jkaen being village, as Ability seer is a pretty weak role as the only detection ability.

[uberfish]

I'm liking zaks play today - jkaen what is the loss in not claiming your night target?
How do we know that Ryan or uberfish didn't draw the block?
Or even zak - if we know that you were blocked then we can tell that other players like zak weren't blocked, meaning we can have greater knowledge about what happened in the night.

Not really sure what you are arguing here? That jkaen's failure to immediately state whom he tracked is scummy?

[zakalwe]

btw, the lack of a seer is also a point in favour of Jkaen being village, as Ability seer is a pretty weak role as the only detection ability.

That depends a bit on what abilities the scum have. In the last game, both scum players had explicit killing abilities. Mine was called Hire Assassin, and Lewwyn's killing ability was called Get Bent. A village role seer is pretty scary for scum if they need to make up fake claims.

I concede that it's a valid point, but not one that carries much weight for me.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm agreeing with what zak is saying, that jkaen's not saying what he did at night is a antitown move.
His apparent intention not to state it at any point is worse, and I think the priority in a lylo is to get as much information out for the village as possible.

If he planned to reveal later then id be fine, but as is its scummy to not reveal.

[zakalwe]

But zak you already know what my tracking result is! - no result

This is where Jkaen gives us his tracking result. I think he didn't say anything about his target because he simply forgot about it. He had decided to pretend that he was blocked, and didn't remember that "no result" could also mean his target went nowhere. Thus, I had to prod him for his target. Then he really started sweating, and tried to pretend that the target was irrelevant, which it certainly was not.

If he were a real tracker he would have told us who he tracked right away, as part of the result.