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Picks sent:
1. Decius (calabim)
2. Beeri of luchuirp
3. jonas of clan
playing around in the sandbox the fastest starts were just too much fun. I'm not enamored with Jonas with these settings, but that's why he's number 3. I actually think beeri would be really good: mud golems = win, but having enchantment/life mana to start is a nice boost to vertical expansion as well.
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Got Decius. Time for some serious sandboxing. I it seems that taking a scientist over engineer with the shade only cuts the time to code of laws by a few turns (T45->T43 ish). A lot will depend on what's in the fog, as good commerce resources would make a GE even better to get settlers out quicker. Will have to test some more. Worker first, Ag-Cal-Craft-Mining-> COL beeline seems to be logical tech path.
Also need to test what works best for the worldspell. I'm now thinking that waiting for everyone else to hit size three might be best. The starting shade means the comparative advantage of a T0 river of blood is much less (GE = +3 hammers, +3 beakers; RoB would get me +4 food hammers, +2 beakers after borders pop).
Thoughts Q?
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Another good time to fire off the worldspell is right after planting your second city. Gives pop bonus in two cities. Hurts the other players, but they'll probably bounce back fast.
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Sorry I haven't been responding I've been on vacation for the past week.
I agree, my first thought on that setup was decius, and it hasn't changed. The early commerce/3-pop start (yes T1 RoB is definitely superior - its advantage lies in the faster first worker, which is stronger then usual because the early commerce will push out the worker techs fast, for a superior start.) [BTW I often seem to go on long bracketed tangents. Apologies]should help you push out past the normally slow start. I think GS would be better, but I'll have a look at a sim for it.
Remember to slot AC in there (probably after mining).
What sort of long-term plans did you have tech wis? (Huge means chariots might not work so well)
You don't need four warriors for second city, just push it when you reach the cap.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
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Assuming RoB first, tech plan as you suggested, worker->BP->BP->worker->[revolt to agrar]->BP->settler
I get settler T26, with 4 bloodpets, 1 scout, 2 workers. Mining comes in same turn.
4 farms (cow+corn+2xriversideGL), incense, two roads (both nessecary for movement, but with the idea that these turns are flexible for second city helping. The second ordinary farm was also not entirely nessecary, but would likely be shared with city2.] and two spare for the hell of it.
Edit: actually I just optimized that for a T25 mining/settler 
I can send you a save stack if you want.
I'll do GE next.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
April 26th, 2013, 02:40
(This post was last modified: April 26th, 2013, 02:47 by Qgqqqqq.)
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Nah GS is definitely faster.
You lose a lot of the advantage because you need to work oasis/gems/cornT3-4 (to get the worker/tech out T5). Thats instead of deer/corn/oasis (2 foodhammers).
Then though the worker turns are coming faster, you're losing a lot of benefit because your building 3/0/1 improvements rather then incense and 4/0/1 farms(+cow for both).
The constraint, as usual, is in beakers not production.
Also convinced of 2 workers over 1.
Edit: 1 worker only saves 2 turns on the settler. not worth it IMO.
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Wasn't going to, but since I'd gone that far already thought why not:
First 25 turns
Build order as earlier.
The double up of T1 are T0/1, its a EitB error.
At about T17 the worker movements don't matter - they'll change based on second city, but I think I'd actually send A to the tile to the west, so that they do the tile next to gems first.
Doesn't matter for ages of course.
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(April 25th, 2013, 15:44)DaveV Wrote: Another good time to fire off the worldspell is right after planting your second city. Gives pop bonus in two cities. Hurts the other players, but they'll probably bounce back fast.
hmmm, good point. I usually grow to the happy cap before the first settler, but it would be nice to cut everyone else down a bit. If waiting on RoB only slows us down a turn or two, then it could be worthwhile. Gotta go take a look at Q's sandboxing...
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It'd slow us much more then that. (It shaves three turns off the initial worker already, and that's ignoring growth time etc. - I wouldn't be surprised if that cost us ten turns on the initial settler.)
Besides, people will anti meta it (see 25 for example) so I doubt we'd do much damage.
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This is great Q! I say that “more testing is needed” and you run micro for the first 25 turns.  umm, “my thesis needs to get written...” 
(April 25th, 2013, 22:45)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Sorry I haven't been responding I've been on vacation for the past week.
I agree, my first thought on that setup was decius, and it hasn't changed. The early commerce/3-pop start (yes T1 RoB is definitely superior - its advantage lies in the faster first worker, which is stronger then usual because the early commerce will push out the worker techs fast, for a superior start.) [BTW I often seem to go on long bracketed tangents. Apologies]should help you push out past the normally slow start. I think GS would be better, but I'll have a look at a sim for it.
Remember to slot AC in there (probably after mining).
What sort of long-term plans did you have tech wis? (Huge means chariots might not work so well)
You don't need four warriors for second city, just push it when you reach the cap.
AC is first tech on the CoL beeline as it’s prereq for edu; I think the world size is standard, so chariots might still work, but they’re only 2 techs (masonry + construction) off the vampire beeline which I think makes sense to mostly follow. Planning to skip religion and go for sanitation after CoL. Religion gives up to 3 happy (1 from religion, 1 from temple, 1 from religion civic) from 80 hammers and tech into myst + religion of choice. Public baths give 3 happy from 100 hammers, and +1 food for all farms with similar beaker requirements.
I like to have 2x warriors per city in the early game, but 3 between the first 2 cities could work if second city is close.
(April 26th, 2013, 02:29)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Assuming RoB first, tech plan as you suggested, worker->BP->BP->worker->[revolt to agrar]->BP->settler
I get settler T26, with 4 bloodpets, 1 scout, 2 workers. Mining comes in same turn.
4 farms (cow+corn+2xriversideGL), incense, two roads (both nessecary for movement, but with the idea that these turns are flexible for second city helping. The second ordinary farm was also not entirely nessecary, but would likely be shared with city2.] and two spare for the hell of it.
Edit: actually I just optimized that for a T25 mining/settler
I can send you a save stack if you want.
I'll do GE next. (April 26th, 2013, 02:40)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Nah GS is definitely faster.
You lose a lot of the advantage because you need to work oasis/gems/cornT3-4 (to get the worker/tech out T5). Thats instead of deer/corn/oasis (2 foodhammers).
Then though the worker turns are coming faster, you're losing a lot of benefit because your building 3/0/1 improvements rather then incense and 4/0/1 farms(+cow for both).
The constraint, as usual, is in beakers not production.
Also convinced of 2 workers over 1.
Edit: 1 worker only saves 2 turns on the settler. not worth it IMO.
(April 26th, 2013, 03:26)Qgqqqqq Wrote: Wasn't going to, but since I'd gone that far already thought why not:
First 25 turns
Build order as earlier.
The double up of T1 are T0/1, its a EitB error.
At about T17 the worker movements don't matter - they'll change based on second city, but I think I'd actually send A to the tile to the west, so that they do the tile next to gems first.
Doesn't matter for ages of course.
I’m traveling in the US until Monday, so might not be able to look through this in detail until then. In my earlier sandboxing (T1 RoB, GE) I got settler T24 with 2 workers, or T21 with 1 worker, but mining was a couple turns later in coming. Didn’t optimize much, but it looks like the settler dates with a GS are comparable. I really hope Ichabod takes a few more days with the map so I have time to go over all of this!
The next question is how much would waiting on RoB set us back? If it only means a 1 or 2 turn delay in the settler, it could be worth it, because it should easily set all of our opponents back more than that. So the comparative advantage would be greater. Quick thought experiment: GS (1H) + PH plant (2H) + palace (1H) +oasis/deer (3FH for 3 turns, 4FH after popping borders) gets the first worker on T7. That’s what, one turn later? But one turn now =/= one turn later.
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