Strategic directions - long-term planning

[kjn]

I should be able to work out what improvements they have at their capital even without moving the chariot, and we can track production already. So I think mostly_harmless does more good scouting out new land, and perhaps join up with the galley if possible.

Getting a merchant and a scientist would be ideal, but Mansa's Muse will have decent odds for a prophet or a spy whatever we do. We can use the spy to get a boatload of EP, or use either for a future golden age, but I think we need to decide if we want a near-guaranteed merchant or scientist, and then run those specialists in Eastern Dealers. Mansa's Muse then runs the other type. I think we should put higher priority on the merchant, but that is just a quick intuition.

Agree on holding Oxford for now. We've been going wide so far, and we can probably keep doing that. But I think we can probably whip forges in most of our commerce cities, and then overflow to universities.

A few spies would be worthwhile. Having one to guard critical builds and one invisible scout would be the quite useful. I think we should whip at least one from Starfall with a single hammer or two invested, which should give plenty of overflow.

[pindicator]

Lots of good questions in there. Just to weigh in on one of them, i think the plan was to attack the Germans with eles? If so we definitely want to prioritize HBR, possibly before Alphabet. (Depends if military cities would be ready to build units or if they'd be still completing their forges.)

[Ubercannon]

Are there any cities that really need more happiness soon? If not, then Norte dame should be a low priority. I think my vote would be for prioritizing printing press, while using caste system scientists to get a great scientist to bulb it. Drafted mace men should be more than sufficient to run over the Germans.

Having one or two spies to act as scouts in the German territory in front of our army would be good.

[novice]

Good thoughts Sullla.

I think we can take the Germans with catapults from HF and drafted macemen. Engineering would be really good though just for logistics, if we're going for 1-movers. Communism does not require guilds. So I'm still leaning Metal Casting-Machinery-Alpha-PP. With Engineering inserted between Machinery and Alpha. Then get a GSci from ED during the GA, and use it to bulb PP.

Once we have conquered the Germans we really want communism, so tech Gunpowder-Chemistry-Sci Meth-Communism.

EDIT: Crossposted with Ubercannon, seems we're in agreement.

[Sullla]

I think that we're cutting off our noses to spite our face if we plan on embarking on a big military campaign without using knights. I'd point to the following reasons why we want Guilds as a tech:

* Knights are by far the strongest unit in the medieval / early Renaissance period until the arrival of cuirassiers.

* Guilds lets us build a grocer in our highly profitable shrine city. It's also a needed prerequisite for the cheap Banking tech that lets us build a bank in the same city (already worth almost 15 gold/turn independent of the slider).

* Guilds is an optional pre-requisite for Gunpowder, so teching Guilds will actually make Gunpowder tech cheaper. (Gunpowder base cost 2160 beakers on this map, with standard 20% prerequisite discount effective cost = 1800 beakers, with Guilds added in cost = 1542 beakers. We save about 250 beakers.)

* Guilds also adds +1 production on workshop tiles. This is not a trivial fact if we're rushing towards Communism/State Property.

Once again, you guys are overthinking things. There's no question that we want Guilds, my only point of debate was whether we wanted to prioritize Engineering first. It's pure silliness to try and go all the way to expensive Renaissance techs without making use of much cheaper, powerful Medieval techs. We also have a strong Heroic Epic city that has the ability to churn out 2 knights every 3 turns, with double promos once we get a stables inside. Why would we not make use of the best units we can build? All the German team would have to do is tech Feudalism, and suddenly maces vs longbows would be a terrible slaughter. We are tying our own hands if we don't tech quickly to knights and use them extensively.

Speaker, I know you've been lurking this game. If you read this thread, please post and tell everyone how foolish it would be not to tech Guilds and make widespread use of knights.

[Speaker]

I was about to post before I read the last line of your posts, Sullla. You would be absolutely crazy to run a Renaissance-era war without Knights. They are the best unit available, by far, during this era. If the enemy does not have Pikes, they cannot be stopped. Having a stack of 6-10 Knights allows you to threaten so many other cities, away from your main stack. That combat flexibility forces the enemy to leave units behind, or risk being flanked.

Remember, the key to multiplayer war is to win as decisively as possible, as quickly as possible. The longer you spend at war, the more time you are building units and worrying about happiness, and not building infrastructure and technology. If you have to walk up one tile at a time to every city, it will take forever to conquer a whole civilization.

[regoarrarr]

How close is anyone else to Engineering? Is there anybody that has Construction + Machinery both? Of course, since we don't have many (any?) cities with a current happiness crunch, the ideal time to complete ND is one turn before anyone else

My gut says that nobody is going to complete it anytime soon, so I agree that there are other techs to pursue. We can always hope the Germans build it

[novice]

When Speaker speaks, people listen.

Still, Sullla wants Alphabet and Machinery is a pre-req for Guilds. So I still think we should follow the first part of my tech plan and then get PP mostly from a bulb. Then we can pick up Guilds before heading towards Communism.

In other words Metal Casting->Machinery->Alphabet->PP (part-bulbed)->Feudalism->Guilds.

Like Rego alludes to we can maybe delay Engineering until after Guilds.

[regoarrarr]

Answering my own question, from reading the C&D spreadsheet, nobody has Machinery, and only 3 teams have MC (Apolyton, CivFr and CivFanatics). Of those 3, Apolyton does not have Construction. So my vote would be to tentatively hold off on Engineering, and possibly re-evaluate if any of those teams pick up Machinery.

[kalin]

In other words Metal Casting->Machinery->Alphabet->PP (part-bulbed)->Feudalism->Guilds.

I like this tech path. We want knights. Having Machinery soon, before other people may also dissuade them from trying for ND.

Kalin