(May 6th, 2013, 08:58)Ellimist Wrote: They know exactly what they did.
Oh, strongly agree with this too. It's not like they built Taj and went "oh right I guess we should pass on that marble." They knew we were gunning for Taj based on the marble provision, so they rushed to Nationalism with full-on wealth builds (despite being in a war) and lined up a bunch of overflow so they could finish Taj in their very tiny window before giving it to us a full month after we asked for it. They know they sniped that from us, which is absolutely part of the game, but part of the game is also trying to capitalize on their slightly guilty conscience.
The reason why I think all of this is bullshit is because if they don't profit from the marble deal by us giving them stone, they never get Mids fast enough to run massive Rep scientists and get to Nationalism fast enough to beat us to Taj. They specifically milked that deal in bad faith to beat us. I could care less about being beat (i.e. Oracle, MoM, etc.).
I advocate for rejecting the marble deal and saying nothing for now.
Completed: SG2-Wonders or Else!; SG3-Monarch Can't Hold Me; WW3-Surviving Wolf; PBEM3-Replacement for Timmy of Khmer; PBEM11-Screwed Up Huayna Capac of Zulu; PBEM19-GES, Roland & Friends (Mansa of Egypt); SG4-Immortality Scares Me
(May 6th, 2013, 06:53)Nicolae Carpathia Wrote: Dude we just revolted to Nationhood. Let's fucking wring them for all we've got.
Quoted to serve as a primer for my argument. And also because I love snarky brevity. Now, lacking brevity myself...
I would be interested to know through Spanish Apolyton when they concluded a diplomatic agreement for peace vs. when this was carried through in-game on the diplo interface. My guess is that an understanding has been in place for some time, but CFC wanted to keep the charade of a war going to prevent having to deal with us diplomatically while their Taj plans came to fruition. Just a quick email to the Spanish saying something along the lines of "Out of curiosity, when did you agree to peace with CFC? We're afraid that they've been less than forthcoming with us in diplomacy and hope that they aren't doing the same to you". Then, we can maybe develop some scheme to hatch down the road with the Spanish, or open a dialogue with them if they think CFC is coming for them again some time in the future. At that point, CFC will be the ones needing a secure flank, and we may be in a position to extort them, or to knife them. Most likely this goes nowhere with the Spanish, but I see little harm in the attempt, even if it gets back to CFC. This, anyway, is how I would like to explore the issue of "good faith" about CFC, in hopes that it could lead to some tangible diplomatic benefit with the Spanish in the future.
As for CFC, I recommend we ignore their bullshit taunt for now, decline the marble, request it when we want it, and hope they don't deliver because it's inconvenient. The "in good faith" aspect of the agreement is pure garbage, as has been pointed out. We can't leave anything subjective in our agreements with CFC, so let's just state plainly X for Y with them from here on out.
Regarding our specific message to CFC, I like Ellimist's approach. Our plan is to draft heavily anyway. Let CFC interpret this as they will. Eventually they will come to the conclusion that they need to do something to appease us. CFC has Nationalism, a GA, and are SPI to boot, so drafting is enabled for them as needed. We have revolted, and so are committed to Nationhood, so the draft is on for the foreseeable future. What can CFC draft? Do they have Machinery? Not yet. Enjoy your army of draftable axes. Our War Chariots can always use a cheap promotion. However, for a team in Representation and a golden age, it won't be hard to correct that by getting Machinery (researched Metal Casting T125, so Machinery is available to them), but it is worth mentioning for now. Also, CFC teched Construction T115 and so will have some cats available.
Conclusion: CFC have artificially propped up their economy using extensive wealth builds to beeline Nationalism to beat us to Taj. They have neglected many other techs to do this, and it should not escape their attention that we will be drafting maces now, and further that we have researched Education, meaning we're a heartbeat away from Gunpowder. We have not run extensive wealth builds (this they may or may not know), but it is doubtful from their perspective that we have used as many turns building wealth (and thus not other infrastructure that will give lasting benefits) as they have. The point of this is that our higher population is operating with a leaner, more efficient economy, and that we can go on to Chemistry/Steel, or to Rifling soon enough to be a serious threat to them while they go back and tech Paper and Education just to get to Gunpowder. They are in a serious hole and know this, and they can enjoy that knowledge as our power climbs. Let our silence force them to make an offer that we can't refuse. If we send anything to them in diplo, let it be a screenshot of the power graph once we've started spiking. I'm fine if they build up an army now, rather than developing economy, because they are uncertain of our intentions. Whatever they build now, minus catapults and maybe even those, will be trash by the time our NAP expires on T175.
(May 6th, 2013, 06:53)Nicolae Carpathia Wrote: Dude we just revolted to Nationhood. Let's fucking wring them for all we've got.
Request: screenshot of the idiot CFC city including its current defensive garrison.
There is something appealing to me about rejecting the Marble trade and saying nothing. It would be interesting to see how (or even if) they respond...
Saying nothing is sort of growing on me. Let's reject the deal without a word. We can continue this discussion here. I'm curious if they'll send a follow-up email or if they'll try to corner me on chat.
(May 6th, 2013, 10:15)scooter Wrote: Saying nothing is sort of growing on me. Let's reject the deal without a word. We can continue this discussion here. I'm curious if they'll send a follow-up email or if they'll try to corner me on chat.
(May 6th, 2013, 09:59)Gold Ergo Sum Wrote: The reason why I think all of this is bullshit is because if they don't profit from the marble deal by us giving them stone, they never get Mids fast enough to run massive Rep scientists and get to Nationalism fast enough to beat us to Taj. They specifically milked that deal in bad faith to beat us. I could care less about being beat (i.e. Oracle, MoM, etc.).
I advocate for rejecting the marble deal and saying nothing for now.
I agree with GES here.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(May 6th, 2013, 10:27)Azza Wrote: I don't mind the idea of not responding immediately, but what would we hope to gain from it other than smug satisfaction?
Make them worry, but in an easily explainable way that keeps future deals open. I'm not even sure how you see us gaining "smug satisfaction" from that.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
As you might have noticed, the Spaniards have finally agreed to peace and we were able to connect our marble! We would like to gift it to you now as per our agreement. We currently don't need it but we would like to start on our own Epics in about ten turns. We have offered it in game so please ask your turnplayer to accept it.
Thanks,
Caledorn / Team CFC
Other possible responses:
"No."
"lol"
"Cute"
"thats funny"
"Bad idea"
" "
"Try again"
"[insert movie quote or clip]"
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