Intersite Game - Turn Discussion Thread

[sooooo]

In general there is no need to whip a forge unless we are in a hurry to whip the next thing after the forge, or we are growing into unhappiness.

Well, we do benefit in terms of happiness from 3-whipping vs 2-whipping. Since hapiness will become a crucial resource soon, 3-whipping looks better in most cities.

HF: Actually, I'm not convinced we should build a forge here at all. With OR, the Forge takes 96 base hammers to construct. Those 96h could have been 192h worth of units. After it's built, the forge gives +25% production for units, which is worth 5h per turns towards units. That will take almost 40 turns just to break even in production, and during that whole time we will be down units compared to where we could be. And we are planning a war. And the happiness from the forge doesn't look necessary in that city.

I actually think that forge is still best here. The problem with the above logic is that you'd never build a forge. The game will still be in balance I'm sure in 40 turns, and we'll value it then, so the earlier we build the forge the better.

TH: I guess we should probably be working the grass farm over grass cottages here, right? Since it's already built I mean? I'm basing this off the classic observation that when ignoring worker labor, it's optimal to grow cottage cities on farms first and then gradually switch to cottages.

I didn't know this, is there a post you can direct me to that explains it? Seems counter intuitive to work farm over cottage when they both result in growth into the other in 2 turns time, but I suppose if we whip away those workers then the extra 2 food in the box could be worth more than 2 turns worth of cottage maturity and 2 commerce. But it still sounds strange and I'll like to see the workings here.

SF: I haven't looked closely at the details, but I believe someone (sooooo?) said we should skip the useless forge and just whip axes/spears, and I agree with this.

We can't really do this anymore because the cheap units will obsolete very soon. So quadruple-whipping the forge looks to be the best bet.

FR: I would prefer to switch to a forge, build farms instead of cottages, and consider the library to just be wasted hammers. It's not worth developing this into a commerce city because it can't grow very large. Whip forge and barracks in quick succession, later.

I've also been thinking that French Riviera is not worth making into a commerce city.

[SevenSpirits]

HF: Actually, I'm not convinced we should build a forge here at all. With OR, the Forge takes 96 base hammers to construct. Those 96h could have been 192h worth of units. After it's built, the forge gives +25% production for units, which is worth 5h per turns towards units. That will take almost 40 turns just to break even in production, and during that whole time we will be down units compared to where we could be. And we are planning a war. And the happiness from the forge doesn't look necessary in that city.

I actually think that forge is still best here. The problem with the above logic is that you'd never build a forge. The game will still be in balance I'm sure in 40 turns, and we'll value it then, so the earlier we build the forge the better.

I truly believe we should never build a forge there. I'd rather have the units. Almost any other city gets a better return on building a forge than this one.

[darrelljs]

You're 150% the cost of the Forge in the hole by the time it completes, that will take quite some time to catch up, and when you factor in the opportunity cost of the delay in unit construction its not a good idea.

Darrell

[Ellimist]

It only takes 40 turns to be worthwhile if we never whip the city or production is otherwise capped.

[SevenSpirits]

It only takes 40 turns to be worthwhile if we never whip the city or production is otherwise capped.

Slight error on my part: I didn't notice there's a plains hill that we aren't working yet. So actually the forge is worth 6h/t instead of 5, which doesn't sound like much but is 20% more. In that case I would favor building units for now, but getting the forge in after we no longer need units for the German war.

Btw no, I don't see us whipping that city. I think we will spend excess pop to draft instead.

[T-hawk]

Building a forge in the Heroic Epic city is a common question, I think about it in every game. There's more arguments for and against as follows:

For: The forge timeshifts hammers into the future. Our city can build chariots but not knights now. But by building a forge, we can invest hammers now to receive payback in the better strength/hammer ratio of knights instead. How important this effect is depends on how happy we are with the units it can produce right now, namely catapults. Do we want to keep producing those or shift hammers to a future unit?

Against: Opportunity cost, as always. As Seven says, it's ~40 turns to payback. The HE city usually sees a doubled payback time for a forge as compared to other cities, because the opportunity cost is giving up a +100% production bonus. So consider the payback time of the units it will produce instead. What's the expected value of the catapults it could produce now? Will each catapult, on average, result in capture gains worth more than 25 hammers within 40 turns?

I'm not sure of the answers to either of those, not being an MP war expert. But those are the right questions to ask.

[kjn]

I think the forge will be a good investment in Horse Feathers.

First, it lets us shift hammers from catapults into knights, as T-Hawk notes. HF can reach 24hpt with the plains hill mine, which will give 48hpt without the forge and 54hpt with the forge. With the desert hill mine, those numbers will be 54hpt and 60hpt.

Second, HF is currently happy constrained. The only reason it has a happy surplus right now is all the catapults we've stuffed into the city. +2 happy (+3 with silver) will help a lot, and maybe even allow us to draft the city. Our natural happy cap right now is 14 (with a barracks), and HF is size 13 currently. Add whip or draft anger, and our large cities will need every happy face they can get.

We also need to plan on how to use our smattering of veteran units. I'm thinking specifically of our W2 and CR2 axes and our sentry chariot - we should have them available for when we invade the Germans. Having some more of our chariots available would be good too - can be turned into sentry or medic units, and are good for rounding up cripples.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I think the forge will be a good investment in Horse Feathers.

First, it lets us shift hammers from catapults into knights, as T-Hawk notes. HF can reach 24hpt with the plains hill mine, which will give 48hpt without the forge and 54hpt with the forge. With the desert hill mine, those numbers will be 54hpt and 60hpt.

Second, HF is currently happy constrained. The only reason it has a happy surplus right now is all the catapults we've stuffed into the city. +2 happy (+3 with silver) will help a lot, and maybe even allow us to draft the city. Our natural happy cap right now is 14 (with a barracks), and HF is size 13 currently. Add whip or draft anger, and our large cities will need every happy face they can get.

We also need to plan on how to use our smattering of veteran units. I'm thinking specifically of our W2 and CR2 axes and our sentry chariot - we should have them available for when we invade the Germans. Having some more of our chariots available would be good too - can be turned into sentry or medic units, and are good for rounding up cripples.

I agree with all of this. Let's build the forge in HF. This probably pushes the benefits to our second war, the one after fighting the Germans, but as has been said, the units will be better. We can churn suicide cats out somewhere else if we need to cover a shortage in the short term.

[Speaker]

Here is how I would go about considering a forge in the heroic epic city: as currently constructed (without the forge), do you have enough hammers to build a Knight every turn? If not, will a forge allow you to do it? The difference between 2t and 1t Knights is huge. Same question regarding Cuirassier. And Cavalry. Eventually you will want a forge, right, as unit prices continue to increase, to be able to build 2t Cavalry instead of 3t (or something along those lines)? You may as well build it now, instead of building cheap units. If you build it later, you could be building Knights instead.

[sooooo]

FR: I would prefer to switch to a forge, build farms instead of cottages, and consider the library to just be wasted hammers. It's not worth developing this into a commerce city because it can't grow very large. Whip forge and barracks in quick succession, later.

I've also been thinking that French Riviera is not worth making into a commerce city.

Sorry to quote my own post here, but I do think we should finish the library since we've put half of the hammers into it. I don't think we should build a market or university here (for a long while at least), but finishing off the library should be a good investment in hammers. After the library I'd go forge and barracks, making it a hybrid city. It does have one cottage for itself and can take over two cottages from Seven Tribes if that city gets more tile improvements (or is whipped), meaning that a library is worth a decent amount of commerce when you consider the hammers needed to finish the building.