RB PBEM #1 - Mehmed (SPOILERS!)

[kalin]

Things appear to be moving in interesting directions here

I was wondering how far are you from Education/Gunpowder at the moment, and if it weren't better to try to convince Ruff to do MC instead. You already hinted that he could steal philo instead. The alternative of course is to do MC/Machinery for Maces/Xbows.

EDIT: You have open borders with MH and scouted his territory. How are his defenses? Can you attack him before he gets medieval units?

Another thing I meant to suggest is to get a couple of sentry chariots if you can (with stable) as they can be quite useful in seeing something coming.

Kalin

[Dreylin]

I was wondering how far are you from Education/Gunpowder at the moment, and if it weren't better to try to convince Ruff to do MC instead. You already hinted that he could steal philo instead. The alternative of course is to do MC/Machinery for Maces/Xbows.

Ruff is all set to use some of his EPs to steal MC from sooooo; I don't think I could get him down to MC, although we did have an interesting discussion earlier today (to be posted shortly).

EDIT: You have open borders with MH and scouted his territory. How are his defenses? Can you attack him before he gets medieval units?

Only really by pounding out Cats & HA's for the next 10turns. His defenses are weak from what I can see.

Another thing I meant to suggest is to get a couple of sentry chariots if you can (with stable) as they can be quite useful in seeing something coming.

Well first order of the day now that I have Music is to build the culture to pop borders in a couple of cities....

[Dreylin]

Long chat with Ruff this morning about the situation:

Ruff.Hi: I haven't got time to talk this morning but I can talk over lunch - I think we need to really look closely at our tech selections

me: I agree
I need Machinery ASAP in order to have any sort of counter to mh's Landknechts

Ruff.Hi: his pikes - how close to engineering is he?

me: Well in one scenario
he is currently saving gold
while sooooo researched Machinery
he receives that from sooooo and starts Eng

Ruff.Hi: are they trading techs or sharing techs?

me: unknown
I suspect the latter
but no evidnce

Ruff.Hi: mh / soooo and I have been talking about trading MC and Mach
mh is not interested in Calendar but was asking about my current tech

me: He has Wines
not Calendar resources

Ruff.Hi: oh - ok - guess you have better map info that I do

me: Well we did agree to trade
and as such it makes sense for me to finish mh's area
as I know much of it already

Ruff.Hi: my scout is heading down to poke around athlete's land

me: Anway, it makes sense for them to trade MC & Mach to you

Ruff.Hi: also looking over sooooo's land
because you cannot get them?

me: if their target is to cut me out of the loop
as I suspect it is
then I get no trade value
in an <EXAMPLE FROM THE 'POLY GAME> kind-of way
I would expect sooooo to go Edu next
once he has your paper
although that does leave the pre-req problem

Ruff.Hi: well - if they are falling into a 3v2 trade block, then should we freeze them out of our techs?

me: I don't think athlete is involved
I think they're trying to rope you into a 3v1v1
effectively

Ruff.Hi: what are your NAPs position?

me: You =15t
sooooo = 10t
just proposed one to athlete

Ruff.Hi: that will be good to see how he responds to that

me: indeed

Ruff.Hi: I would strongly suggest you start beefing up your military
my chariot is 4XPs ... long way from HE

me: Oh that's in progress
I just got an Archer to 5xp by attacking Warriors


Ruff.Hi: how is that barb city - any units there to kill?

me: Just 1 Warrior
though there seems to be a stream coming around the horn

Ruff.Hi: chariots have better odds v warriors
do you want me to gift my 4XP unit to you to get you running on that?

me: but probably pick up less xp
my 5xp archer has another Warrior incoming

Ruff.Hi: ok - once you get to level 4, pls gift unit to me (I will gift right back)

me: if he gets up to 7, I'll walk him over to Zapotec and see what his odds are

Ruff.Hi: then I can build HE too
once we get literature

me: Do you have Lit yet?

Ruff.Hi: no

me: I got it from sooooo

Ruff.Hi: where are you with Music?

me: complete

Ruff.Hi: GA?

me: Joseph Conrad

Ruff.Hi: you could go on offensive with a culture bomb approach

me: Except that affects athlete as well

Ruff.Hi: ok, lets see what he says about NAP
I finish paper in 2 or 3 - lets trade maps when that is clear and then we can work up something
oh - keep you pigs, I have some. I also have sugar in range but I will be taking a holiday from cities for a while until I rebuild my economy

me: Have you any plans to trade maps with anyone else?

Ruff.Hi: current break even tech rate is 50%
no one has mentioned it - but I don't have much map info

me: Yeah, you plonked down two in short order there didn't you

Ruff.Hi: yeah - last round
fish and stone
and banana from the fog!!

me: you still have fog? how retro

Ruff.Hi: 3 stupid tiles that were mostly revealed from a hut map

me: Ah
What about a trade for Paper itself?
or are you freezing me out as well

Ruff.Hi: are WE trading or sharing at this stage?

me: Depends

Ruff.Hi: actually - that is an idea - no one has asked me to join their group - maybe I should email them

me:
After my over-eager early approaches, I vowed to myself not to be the one who next started talking about alliances....

Ruff.Hi: only joking

me: About siding with them, or us sharing techs?

Ruff.Hi: let me feel out mh, Athlete and sooooo about (siding with them) what they think is going on
sooooo and I seem to chat freely, mh is stop and go and athlete is mainly stop
if Athlete declines the NAP than I think we should form a tech block
one researches while the other saves and then we swap
or we could trade $ so that one civ could tech at 100%

me: and if athlete accepts the NAP?

Ruff.Hi: have you offered a NAP or have you said "lets talk about a NAP'?

me: Well his message said "I want to consider my options while I work out wft is going on" (paraphrasing)

Ruff.Hi: I guess I am asking if he can come back and say YES to NAP or YES to lets talk about NAP
YES to NAP will lock you into a NAP with him

me: So I said "I have no interest in your land or mh's; why don't we sign a NAP?"

Ruff.Hi: while YES to Talk doesn't

me: Give me time to get there!

Ruff.Hi: ok - that is a YES to talk
well - can the 2 of us out tech the 3 of them?

me: I proposed terms, but said "I don't expect a decision straight away"
I think that we have a decent chance
of keeping up, as long as we target specific improtant techs

Ruff.Hi: my civ will never be a huge sprawling one - only 3 more city sites available for me

me: I figured

Ruff.Hi: but I am planning on having some very large cities

me: I have 5+ more sites
plus a couple of fillers

Ruff.Hi: how is your econ at the moment?

me: Haven't tried break-even recently
(will look next turn)
but seems to be doing OK
need to get some courthouses out though

Ruff.Hi: well - if it does turn into a 3v2, then we stand a real chance of competing

me: Agreed
mh & sooooo only have 5 cities
athlete is still on 4

Ruff.Hi: if we start falling behind, then we can pull off a Religious Diplo victory

me: so we have the same number as both of them
Cheese!
:D

Ruff.Hi: VICTORY!

me: You'd vote for me, right?

Ruff.Hi: for victory?

me: sure

Ruff.Hi: actually - you said you would vote for me as Pope

me: Yes
and I will

Ruff.Hi: how about we flip a coin for victory?

me: but the Pope is Kingmaker, not King.
OK, I'll do it, you call...

Ruff.Hi: hello!!! http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/
we could just to odds and evens and roll a 2 sided die each
anyway - that is miles away

me: I got a 1
therefore I win

Ruff.Hi: keep talking to athlete - see if we can get him on our side

me: Will do ...slowly

Ruff.Hi: I'll talk to mh and sooooo and see if I can sound them out about what is happening

[Dreylin]

I eventually found a way to keep fishing:

mh,

I may be willing to wait if the deal were right; what did you have in mind? I've just finished Music and will be saving gold for a few turns before deciding on my next tech, so if you have a proposal for coordinating our research, let me know.

Dreylin II

[Dreylin]

And I also manage to phrase a response to sooooo:

sooooo,

Very poetic!

I assure you CS wasn't quick, but I've had it for a few turns now and am surprised you didn't notice. Anyway, I have Music now and will be saving gold for a while before making a decision on what to research next. I believe I still have the 31g I owe you available (poor planning I guess), so go ahead and request it from me on your turn.

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

Oooo, an informative reply!

Word-up!

I was half joking about not noticing Civil Service. I'm in negotiations to get it from a third party though, hence the reluctance to commit to a deal with you.

I shall look forward to your 31 gold. Hope the artist is of use to you.

sooooo

[Dreylin]

Keeping Ruff in the loop.

Ruff,

Hot off the presses from sooooo:

"I was half joking about not noticing Civil Service. I'm in negotiations to get it from a third party though, hence the reluctance to commit to a deal with you."

3rd party has to be mh, since you know what everyone else is researching and can't trade it yourself. Just goes to show that I'm not going to get another trade out of mh.

Dreylin II.

[Dreylin]

I wonder if I'm not really cut out for the cutthroat world of MP Civ:

me: Hey Ruff
another thought:
trading Paper to sooooo practically hands him Liberalism

Ruff.Hi: I think you are the one being frozen out of the trades

me: Yeah, I got that

Ruff.Hi: that is what happens if you start to look like a winner
hadn't thought about liberalism

me: So you're joining them?

Ruff.Hi: no, but I will keep trading with them

me: Well that effectively amounts to the same thing

Ruff.Hi: but I am going to have to select my techs carefully so that you don't have to double research any vital techs

me: So how much of my land have they offered you?

Ruff.Hi: i think they see us as a team
I'll work on trying to get them to free up some techs for you

me: Hmmmm, my breath is not held

Ruff.Hi: who has the tech lead at the moment?
sooooo or you?

me: soooooo

Ruff.Hi: i agree

me: especially after Machinery

Ruff.Hi: let me try and sow some discontent there

me: plus he'll have a second GS in time to bulb Edu
then no contest for Liberalism
then he drafts and marches through you...

Ruff.Hi: he hasn't got the food for heavy drafting
I don't see this game going that way
i emailed eveyrone about map trading ... so far, zero responses

me: OK, I'm going to stop sounding bitter now
(or at least try)

Ruff.Hi: good
remind me again what you are teching?

me: Nothing

Ruff.Hi: oh

me: But I have to duplicate MC & Machinery
to defend against mh

Ruff.Hi: well, select something very nice and keep talking to them about trades

me: I can't

Ruff.Hi: what are your options (tech)

me: to not get run over by Landsknechts?

Ruff.Hi: who else is teching CS?

me: mh
has to be
you'd see if it was anyone else, right?

Ruff.Hi: and what is your UU?

me: Jannissary
(Musket)

Ruff.Hi: I don't see ath research (yet)

me: very good, but out of reach in time
esp since you aren't negotiating a Paper trade with me

Ruff.Hi: any response from Ath about nap

me: no

Ruff.Hi: wow there - I thought that was a given
as in ... sure, lets trade

me: well I used to, but the last two times I brought it up you kind-of brushed it off

Ruff.Hi: oh - sorry

me: plus joining in the cutting me out of the trade loop

Ruff.Hi: didn't mean to

me: leaves me less trusting...
I can't afford to chase Jannissaries
much as I'd like to
If you were teching Edu
and I was able to tech anything to trade to you
then maybe
however sooooo will take Edu
not trade it to me
and so I have to duplicate two techs with zero trade value next

Ruff.Hi: hey - there is nothing I can do re those techs that they have that they will not trade to you
me getting them makes them cheaper for you
and I can keep talking and pointing at Sooooo
but what did you want me to do?

me: True, however you trading them from me rather than them at least allows me to keep up

Ruff.Hi: lets look at how quickly we can get you to gunpowder

me: not very quickly

Ruff.Hi: i would be happy to flip you techs instead of trading
keeping you strong is in my best interest

me: but not too strong, right

Ruff.Hi: of course

me: even though I have no interest in your lands
nor in sooooo's

Ruff.Hi: but honestly - I cannot complete if you expand to your land

me: mh's or athlete's

Ruff.Hi: and I don't expect to go head to head in that way
going for quality over quantity
both is nice, but I don't see me getting there
you aren't happy are you?

me: Not especially
<shrug>

Ruff.Hi: well stop yelling at me

me: should I be?
OK
I'm just trying to figure out how I can pursuade you that you're making a mistake

Ruff.Hi: ok, I have to walk the dog ... take a look at how many beakers you need for your UU and I'll see what I can do to help

me: Enjoy the walk
I promise to be calmer when I get back

Ruff.Hi: ok - lets try and talk tomorrow - I can take all day to play my set

[Dreylin]

Ruff.Hi: hey - you there?

me: Yeah

Ruff.Hi: gunpowder is 3 techs away ... paper, education, gunpowder

me: posting our earlier chat to the thread
and being vaguely embarrassed

Ruff.Hi: I'll trade paper for horseback riding and we will catch up on the beakers later
I just posted it in my thread

me: yeah, but in the meantime I am exceedingly vulnerable to attack

Ruff.Hi: do you have a GS coming soon?

me: Nope
You?

Ruff.Hi: yeah - been thinking about that ...
if I pick up MC and Mach, you could gift me an archer plus gold and I could upgrade to crossbow and send back

me: while also funding myself to research Education!?
It doesn't seem wholely feasible to me
However if I take the guilds route to Gunpowder, at least I can build my own units on the way
and all I'd need would be Feudalism from athlete
which I think I can swing

Ruff.Hi: sorry - back now
I have a GS in 7 or 8 turns, but I am looking at an Acadamy instead of LBing Education
one thing with all this trading is that the game is going way to quick to actually build anything

me: yeah
well I'll have a lot more time for that now

Ruff.Hi: if you save while I tech paper, I can save while you tech Education
I still think Paper, Edu, Gunpowder is the way to go
doesn't leave you needing anything from mh or Athlete

me: yeah, but leaves me vulnerable

Ruff.Hi: does mh have pikes yet

me: and is not actually much quicker
Mach + Eng
plus I have no time to build Unis

Ruff.Hi: and you can culture bomb a suitable city, throw up some walls and it will take mh ages to get through that
or sign a NAP

me: culture bomb hits athlete as well,and I would rather avoid that

Ruff.Hi: necessary evil
keep it until mh declares and the <shrug> 'nothing I could do' to Athlete

me: That's the plan
however there's no need for mh to declare on me soon if I'm cut out of trading
They can just wait for me to fall hopelessly behind

Ruff.Hi: which you will not do
I think your land will keep you up to speed

me: Jannissaries are only good vs pre-gunpowder
so no benefit if at tech parity

Ruff.Hi: and if you do, then you can talk to mh about how he is helping sooooo win
ok - off to watch TV - talk to you tomorrow

Well I'm not certain I buy into the Edu-Gunpowder route. I certainly won't have the funds to both research Education and upgrade more than a couple of Crossbows - really doesn't seem feasible. The one thing I forgot to ask Ruff is where he was going to be getting Education from...?

[zakalwe]

Have you considered using the Great Artist for a Golden Age? Might it be worthwhile in order to bang out some quick troops, infrastructure or great scientists for example?

Or is it just too short to be worth it? Ideally I imagine you'd want to settle all your cities before starting any golden ages, but a small boost now could also pay long term dividends that are hard to quantify.

Another thought if you want to go on the attack; I imagine an important aspect of this would be to build up your military power extremely fast so your opponents get little time to react, so is there any way for you to get your hands on a great merchant and cash him for a mass upgrade?