[SPOILERS] They're cOMing to taKe mE AWAy! Haha! Hoho.

[Mattimeo]

Although I did forward it to you, Q. Lurkers, if you want pics, you know who to bug!

Initially mis-read that as 'hug'.

...actually, that's a much more entertaining interpretation
* Mattimeo hugs Qgqqqqq in anticipation of pics

[Mardoc]

Pics tonight, hopefully. The news is all bad, though.

Three lizardmen in our territory, including on the gems. One of them just killed a warrior who was on a forested hill (we had odds, but not a friendly RNG), so it'll be promoting. Ellimist showed up to the south with a Combat 5! Griffon - he might not attack, but well, he's Ellimist. He tends to consider war just another part of diplomacy.

Greetings, Barnum of the Circus!

Is there a role for a trained griffon under the big top?

Decius of the Calabim

Greetings indeed!


There might be a role, but only if you were willing to transfer ownership. Are you willing to sell?



Perhaps you'd be interested in an information exchange? I'm quite curious about what goodies Merovech has put in the sea.


As a sample from my end, Selrahc was eliminated by a Mistform, plus 1-2 regular barbs. Apparently Mistforms weren't converted to animal AI after all, despite the changelog.


- Barnum

Not a good sign that the first thing he mentions is the griffon, rather than land or demos or deals or anything. I'm assuming next turn we'll be at war.

I took a 1-turn break from settlering to build a Palisade in Ringmaster. Doesn't give us odds against a Str 8 griff, not until we have copper warriors defending, but every bit helps. He can't have a horde of these things, not on T67, so we just need to get lucky once. I'm frankly amazed he managed to capture and promote a griffon this far by now, even with a super scout and an early Animal Husbandry.

Depending on whether he declares or not, we may need to continue to delay the settler to pump out warriors, Freaks, and an Arena or Hunting Lodge. Once we have bronze, regular warriors should have odds in cities, which ought to give us enough of a breather to come up with something more effective out of cities. And at least Griffons can't pillage. Still, if he guesses right, he could hit Ringmaster in two turns, with pretty decent odds on my warriors (Str 8 vs Str 6.45 for a fully fortified warrior, Str 5.7 for an unfortified - but with bronze that'll be vs Str 8.6/7.6, much less likely for him to want to risk).

In slightly better news, all but one of the workers could work this turn. In fact, the barb by the bronze attacked and lost, rather than pillage or win. So we have a new winery, a new copper mine, and some turns into roads. Now all we need is three more turns for Bronze Working to come in, and we can start reclaiming our land. And if we're lucky, the lizards suicide, giving us a few bronze workers with promotions available for griffon hunting duty.

I'm thinking we may need to go either Animal Husbandry/Hunting next, or Fishing/Sailing, depending on what Elli does with that griffon. Or, hmm, maybe KotE/Necro would also work - wall of bones is a decent answer to a single strong unit. Or heck, wall of puppets!

What we really need is just a little RNG luck, though. Bronze should let us have a decent shot with warrior-pults or fighting on the defense, and we only need to win once.

[Qgqqqqq]

Sorry I didn't give pics, for some reason the FFH stuff doesn't appear on my usercp.

I don't think fishing/sailing is particularly useful, certainly not before kote - galleys wouldn't even get odds.
I can't remember the terrain properly do you have mountains?
If not then maybe hunting is the best path (particularly against 2 move monster)...
Does a palliside stack?
I always thought it worked like walls in bts, so wouldn't give any benefit after the first border pop.

[Mardoc]

I don't think fishing/sailing is particularly useful, certainly not before kote - galleys wouldn't even get odds.

Galleys might not. But they're not the only unit unlocked by Sailing:


It depends on where I need to defend, honestly. Plus, as a bonus, I have a bunch of lake tiles to potentially work.

I can't remember the terrain properly do you have mountains?

Yes. Although only the gold is really accessible from them, at least before the griff gets a whole bunch of XP and some mobility promotions. Here's a tactical overview:

If not then maybe hunting is the best path (particularly against 2 move monster)...

Well, hunting is the best way to get odds in the open, with a single unit. I'm not certain that 40 hammers for a Hunter (+ 67 for the lodge) is a better deal than just, say, 48 hammers for 2 warriorpults and a warrior, but it's worth picking up anyway for the furs and deer, at some point.

Does a palliside stack?
I always thought it worked like walls in bts, so wouldn't give any benefit after the first border pop.

Yes, actually, palisades and walls and Wall of Stone all stack on top of the cultural defense bonus and each other. Right now Ringmaster is at +40% defense, for three border pops and the palisade.

It's not often relevant, because normally if you're defending a city you're losing, but it might matter here.

Some more pictures from this turn and the last couple, that might be interesting:

[Qgqqqqq]

Ah ok, I thought the griffon was coming from the north.
So there's basically two concerns, firstly that he squats on the fountain, or he sits in the water.
Water can be countered, and fishing/sailing looks worthwhile, but I don't think you can a afford to let him reach the mountains, as then you can't dislodge him until elementalism.
With that in mind, I think I agree with fishing/sailing as a possible next step (positives of his squating there is you don't need many of the tiles improved in the area) and a general work to try and interfere with a path to the mountains (warriorsfortified in the forest won't kill, but will slow/wound, possibly enough for an infusion of bronze warriors to kill).

Also consider a post bronze trap of a worker - if he doesn't take it then he can't ever take it meaning workers can move with impunity so long as they have a bit of backup.

[Mardoc]

(positives of his squating there is you don't need many of the tiles improved in the area)

Which is the main reason I might not bother - make him believe he's invulnerable and he might stay where he's irrelevant .

and a general work to try and interfere with a path to the mountains (warriorsfortified in the forest won't kill, but will slow/wound, possibly enough for an infusion of bronze warriors to kill).

Don't think this is possible. There's no way I have enough warriors to both block every tile and have a counterattack force ready. I've only something like 9 warriors in my whole empire, and I need them mostly for keeping the cities alive. What may work is to let him go somewhere and then kill him, though. Griffons get no defense bonuses.

Also consider a post bronze trap of a worker - if he doesn't take it then he can't ever take it meaning workers can move with impunity so long as they have a bit of backup.

This may be the best way to kill the griff. Either that, or...let it be, and ignore it. Depends on where he goes, but it should be costing him 2 gpt in maintenance and supply, and I'll be teching onward.

Ultimately, though, we're just brainstorming. It might turn out to be a threat but not an actual attack, and if he does attack, everything depends on what tactics he uses, and how the RNG feels about us. And a lot also depends on if he comes straight in, or if he waits to assess the situation first - maybe he ends up scouting along our borders for a couple turns, or maybe he's not actually planning hostilities. Gotta wait and see what he does.

[Mardoc]

No save yet, but we do have this:

To Barnum, Grand Ringmaster of the Circus,

Griffons can do so many wonderful things
They go wherever they please and behave like the king
Sometimes their loyalty can wax or wane
They tend to switch sides after sharing some pain

(ooc: clearly, I'm no Perpentach)

So far, for special terrain, the main thing of note is some typed mana nodes guarded by some spectres and a fireball spellcaster. There's also an otherwise unremarkable island with a half dozen lizardmen guarding a ruins.

That's rough to hear about Selrahc, though I admit I was relieved to see him gone. The Illians are not the easiest civ to compete against. He still made the right move popping some lairs, but sometimes that doesn't turn out so well.

If you're looking for gtAngel, he's north-north-west of you, approximately 20-25 tiles from your capital. He just adopted aristocracy a turn ago so he seems to have nearly done a beeline to it. From what I can tell, he's had a fair amount of trouble with the barbarians.

In addition, congratulations for being the only civilization to successfully navigate the River of Blood. Your demographics have certainly reflected it.

Decius of the Calabim

[Mardoc]

Ok, Elli, you're confusing me here. That message, brimming over with useful info, and also this?



Well, I'll give you a chance for no harm, no foul.

In the center of the big continent, there is a portal. Presumably it leads somewhere interesting, but it's guarded by a Heroic Hill Giant, so I haven't been able to test my theory. It appears you've already met HidingKneel - but in case that was just his scout, you may know that his capital is far to my northeast.

I'm very confused - it seems there is no longer a griffon in the area, merely a swimming wolf rider. And somehow we're at war. Surely this is a mistake?

Also, I feel I should mention that my demos are not nearly as they once were, due to the massive influx of lizardmen and consequent production of lizard-killers.

Can I persuade your 'wolf rider' to stick to the seas? Or am I going to have to kill him, possibly with help from the barbs?

- Barnum

But if you don't want to take it - I guess we'll be imitating my Sheaim game, and making some suboptimal choices for the sake of punishing an early choke attempt . Looks like I'm going to have a reason to develop a navy - fortunately Air mana is excellent for the purpose. Just need to get some sailors and some mages. May be a while yet, as mana techs are ~700 beakers and Sorcery is ~2300, but if that's the best way to get to Elli, then we'll do it.

Meanwhile, HidingKneel's looking on in...well, probably in glee. Nothing to do about that, though. Except play nice, and maybe see about allying against the vampires later on.

Rumors are swirling around the elven court that our neighbors are at war!
Is there truth to this?

HK, Envoy of Thessa

I have the intense displeasure to admit that the rumors have some truth. Perhaps the chefs of your court can pass on recipes for making highly experienced griffons edible?

Or, in the event that acquiring the ingredients takes longer than expected, perhaps the hunters of the court would be interested in dividing vampire lands?

In other news - well, not a whole lot. One lizard suicided, the other two stacked up, I'm hoping they die IBT this time. Building more military, Trapeze and High Wire both grew at EOT onto unimproved tiles. But if I get some time before the next wave of barbs, I ought to be able to catch up with the four workers in the area.

Building a mixture of warriors and Freaks - I'm hoping to find the time to slip in an Arena at Ringmaster and have some well-mutated swordsmen for griffon hunting. And perhaps also a Freak Show there to get myself a Great Bard and some Drama/Sanitation action.

[Mardoc]

The vagueness continues:

The Circus is certainly a confusing place, just as the legends claim. A certain amount of madness seems to be contagious.

Our envoy is quite willing to stay out of your way, but surely the people of the Circus can understand the importance of putting on a good show?

(Your shipwrecks will remain undisturbed, and it's not like I could threaten any cities anyway with one unit, but HK will think we're enemies.)

Decius of the Calabim

Three possibilities:

1. Ellimist is lying to HidingKneel
   
2. Ellimist is lying to me
   
3. Ellimist is being careful with his words, and not technically lying to anyone, just giving out false impressions. I note his latest message doesn't exactly rule out worker snipes, depending on what 'out of your way' means. And he wouldn't have wanted to take middling-odds shots at cities and shipwrecks, regardless, not with a valuable griffon.
   

But, well, he's given us a couple crucial turns to get the bronze up and running - if he's aiming to attack later, he's lost a significant advantage.

So, a little more military production. And next turn we give them all bronze. If Elli stays out of the way until then, though, we'll go back to settler building.

Up north, a probably barb but maybe Elli griff. Decided to test by putting a worker nearby, inside culture


Finally, at EOT, we had a nice Freak born - Light, Combat I, Heroic Defense I. Not the best result, but perhaps the best result for this particular situation - only would be better with Stoneskin.



In other news - both lizardmen died and I didn't see any new ones arrive. So we had a good turn toward catching up on improved tiles. Assuming that stays the same IBT, next turn we'll finally have the wheat ready for High Wire and move on toward the Rice.

When Mulcarn slew Sucellus and the Age of Ice began, much of the ancient elven lore was lost forever. Including all of our griffon recipes, sad to say.

As for your proposal, it's a possibility. But surely far in the future.

As expected - not much he can do yet anyway, and he's not sure he even wants to. I'll send back something about planting the seed of an idea.

[Mardoc]

Ellimist's griffon continues to walk the line of almost-worrisome. Not threatening any workers, standing on tiles I want to work, or attacking anything, but still definitely there.


Diplo, for the record. Nothing particularly interesting involved, though.

Of course we're willing to help with the show (or, rumor has it, the
vampiric word is Masquerade?). You recognize that this might involve
realistic griffon bashing, if appropriate? So long as the griffon
doesn't threaten vital performers, though, we'll let him be.

Sounds good.

I'd write more, but I'm a bit short on time tonight.

Ellimist

The intent of our emissaries was merely to plant the acorn of the
idea, so that it might one day grow into a tall oak of alliance. Of
course it is too early to expect the Court to commit. One cannot
expect a house to be built on an acorn, either.

Well said. We will consider your proposal again, when the time is right. In the meanwhile, good luck with your hunt!

In other foreign news, Elli revolted to Apprenticeship/Aristocracy. Which means that his GNP will be spiking, and that Governor's Manors will be going up soon as well . I kinda think this is suboptimally early to be going there, even for Decius of the Calabim, but we'll have to wait and see. If I'm right, I ought to be able to get significantly ahead in the next 10ish turns while he puts up Manors, and keep my lead afterward due to snowball.

Bronze came in at EOT, and our forces will pick up new weapons at the start of next turn. That's enough security for me for the moment with Elli being irritating rather than threatening.

Net result so far from the friendly choke - we built a Palisade we didn't really want, and perhaps 1-2 extra warriors compared to our anti-Lizard plans (plus, we built them earlier than wanted, so spent extra on maintenance and slower cities). And of course trade with Elli has been nuked. So far, it's not worth a crusade, but he's definitely #1 on the 'want to kill' list. And not just because he's been second in demos before Manors go up . The mana nodes en route to him are also perhaps a reason to fight.

So we're back to settler-building, hopefully we haven't lost any hammers to decay. After the settler finishes, we'll go either for a worker or settler again - depends on if the current worker supply can catch us up. I suspect a worker or two will be required, to get cottages built in the core while the current worker force focuses on High Wire and Lion Tamer.

We got the wheat farmed, and the only new barb arrival is a Goblin, non-poison, who we ought to be able to slaughter next turn. So things are slightly less embarassing on the working unimproved tiles front, now. Four workers ought to be able to improve High Wire faster than it grows, surely?


I'm also building a pair of Freaks, because I considered the math, and decided I really want a Great Bard first, not a Great Sage. It would be worth ~700 beakers for Drama and ~700 beakers for Sanitation, which is 35-40 turns of research. Or about 100 turns of Great Sage beaker production if settled - and about the same for an Academy, given our current options for Academy locations. Plus, an early Sanitation ought to supercharge our REX and make it easier to slip into Slavery.

To get a GBard soon, we need Freak Shows up stat. Probably also a Carnival and a Bard being worked somewhere; still Creative means only 40 hammers for a Carnival . Need to decide where it should go; I'm currently thinking Trapeze makes the most sense. It's running out of useful tiles, has a lot of production at the moment, and is already collecting GPP. Ringmaster could get a Carnival started sooner, but that would slow down our REX. And I don't want to work a Bard in the God King/Academy capital, either. Trapeze is still a risk, Inspiration (which we absolutely need) is contaminating the GPP pool, but I think it's worth trying anyway. And it wouldn't be a tragedy to get a GSage, just not quite as good. Ideally I'll get a Freak Show up in several cities - it's likely worth

I'm hoping to avoid building warriors for the most part. We're a bit heavy on military until we manage to expand again, and I'd rather upgraded Freaks in the ranks, anyway. Plus, we're nearly able to put up Granaries, Smokehouses, Mage Guilds, and maybe even a couple Elder Councils/Markets with our excess hammers while growing.

Tech plans - I think we're going to Education next. We're getting our cities happy enough that we really need more reasonable tiles to work, and we're also hurting for cash (that 9 gpt in unit maintenance doesn't help). And it'll give us the option of Apprenticeship, once we have another civic to pair it with. After that...I'm debating between Hunting and Fishing/Sailing and Knowledge of the Ether, and possibly Animal Husbandry too.

It probably depends on which site I want to make city 5. And if Elli's griffon stays around or not. So I need to spend some time staring at the map and plan the next city. Might not happen until after my vacation, though; at the current turn pace we'll still be working on Edu when I leave.