WW24: The Ashes of Brigdarrow: VILLAGE WINS

[Ichabod]

I'm back. Couldn't post on sunday due to commitments. Saturday was night, so I took the day off.

Ah, what was really bad about Gaz at first sight was his vote on me. Why do that after the case is up for like a billion years? And my case against SC is better too . Anyway, maybe he's trying to start new discussions... Hm...

So you're trying to dismiss your case as 'too old'? You've never been pressured, why isn't it worth investigating.

Well, you quoted your own case from day 1. I hadn't said anything on day 2. Gazglum, who hadn't commented on your case on day 1, suddenly find it good enough. That's the strange thing, not that being old make a case bad.

Ichabod you obviously haven't paid any attention to my posts in Day 1, because I was not focused solely on him that day. Today, he's done NOTHING. READ WHAT HE WROTE! We're 32 Hours into Day 2 and Brick STILL hasn't even voted.

Are you defending Brick, Ichabod? Why don't you actually read what he's written. Your ignorance is infuriating. Brick is bullshitting us.

I agree that BRick play on day 1 was suspicious. But I don't want to vote on him while he asked for more time.

...

I want to wait a bit to see something. Will comment more later.

[slowcheetah]

Well, you quoted your own case from day 1. I hadn't said anything on day 2. Gazglum, who hadn't commented on your case on day 1, suddenly find it good enough. That's the strange thing, not that being old make a case bad.

I'd be interested in Gazglums response to this actually. I'd just assumed it'd slipped past his focus on day one. I still think 'a billion years old' could be wolfy exaggeration on your part though.
...

I want to wait a bit to see something. Will comment more later.

Damned cliffhanger endings :P

[Rowain]

Some motivation for BRickAstley

[Rowain]

Mattimeo too (although hard to read ).

The mere fact of my actually being hard to read isn't a town tell in itself, given my record as scum?

No I consider you smart enough to learn from mistakes.

[zakalwe]

Darn a novice day 1 kill is unfortunate.

Its also a risky play by scum given we could potentially have 3 doctors. Does any of you who role scum a bit more often than me have thoughts on which player you have scummed with before would or wouldnt take the risk of going after Novice (the most likely person to be protected imo)

How is it a risky play? There are several 'high priority night 1 kills' playing, I don't see how picking one of them could be considered all that strange. If there is a doctor (and at least a full one seems likely), is there any particular reason they'd target novice N1, as opposed to, say, zak or Serdoa?
Combined with the dithering that followed, it's enough for me to vote Jkaen.

What do you mean by "the dithering that followed", and why is it suspicious?

Azza dealing with the fallout of his misfired joke still niggles at me. I'm not sure that knowing novice wasn't a willing stooge feeding him lines mitigates the fact that no explanation was forthcoming until someone did provide a reasoning for him.

This isn't entirely accurate. Novice did not provide a reasoning for Azza. He just asked him specifically about the self-vote, and Azza then replied. So yes, it took some prodding before the answer was forthcoming, but nobody provided the reasoning for him.

I agree with Serdoa that there aren't really any great cases on any of the active players. I have also had the somewhat arrogant thought that I must have pegged a scum as innocent yesterday, since I'm still alive. So I have given Jkaen and Rowain some attention today, and I have also considered Slowcheetah again, although I still don't see it there. That leaves Mattimeo on my list of "not particularly scummy" people from early on day 1. And I do think he could be scum, if only by elimination.

I'll put my vote on Brick, though. There is just no way that I'm lynching anyone else today if he doesn't even show up again. I'll be here for the deadline, so if he makes a spectacular contribution before then I might still change my mind. But I am starting to get the feeling that we won't be hearing from him again.

[Gazglum]

Ah, what was really bad about Gaz at first sight was his vote on me. Why do that after the case is up for like a billion years? And my case against SC is better too . Anyway, maybe he's trying to start new discussions... Hm...

I thought Day 1 that both your case on Slowcheetah and his case on you were too slight to focus on. Not that I thought they were totally without foundation, but they were about the same strength (not very strong) to my reading, and so there seemed very little reason to side with one of you other the other.

I'm not voting you because of Slowcheetah, I didn't think you were acting scummy, as I said to Azza:

Ichabod isn't hugely suspicious to me. I think that, given the way Realms Beyond Day 1s usually play out, it is likely that one of the quieter posters are a wolf, and so Ichabod is worth investigating. He's been pretty much left alone so far this game, and I don't think his posts are townish enough to warrant that.
\

SO there it is. I've played with you twice, in WW20 you were funny, vocal, caustic and town. In AITP you were quiet, moderate and scum. I've asked other people what you're like in other games but haven't really got a response, so based on my experience with you I thought that was worth investigating, since nobody other than Slowcheetah was on your tail. I'm not saying I've pegged you as super scum, I want to draw you into the discussion more.

And you didn't answer my question. On Day 1 you voted Slowcheetah for reactivity, then Brick after his first 'oh yay, bandwagon' post. What was it about the Brick/Lewwyn/GAzglum interaction that made you change your vote back to Slowcheetah? It seems to me that Brick came out of that exchange looking scummier, while SLowcheetah hadn't done much new to earn extra distrust.

[slowcheetah]

Ok, I'm off to bed and am working in the morning so wont be around for the deadline. I'd be happy to lynch either Ichabod or Brick, and since I'm not happy with any of the other candidates (Gazglum, Rowain) I'm going to put my vote on silentbrick.

brickastley

[Ichabod]

Well, I unvoted Brick because emotional defenses hit me and make me not want to vote for people.

I was sure Mattimeo would receive votes in sucession if he was village. It seemed like the perfect frame job. That didn't happen, so he may indeed be scum.

I don't like Zak's last post. It seemed to me like he was starting to frame another player for a mislynch (Mattimeo), while not wanting to avoid the Brick mislynch. Maybe he was the wolf that piled on Mattimeo (though not with a vote) and Matt is innocent.

I'm missing more active play by Zakalwe. Where are the big frame theories? I'm not seeing it.

His comment about "arrogance for not being night killed" seem to me like a way to defend himself against doubts when he is not night killed on night 2 and the following ones (due to being a wolfman). The wolves were annoyed by his arrogance and decided not to kill him, he's going to claim that.

Zakalwe

[BRickAstley]

(Note: a lot of people commenting on me being around: honest to god truth is i've been alot busier than expected. I know that's no excuse and if I were you I'd probably be all up on my case for lurking as well, so I know it's deserved, just saying what's up.)

Okay, looking at the Day 2 developments and writing as I go:

On Jkaen: I'm not seeing any worth to the case on him due to his immediate reaction post about novice's death. What with a perfect knowledge of the setup, speculation of amount of power roles is expected, though mentioning the 3 docotrs fringe case seems odd. Is there a certain setup likely to have that that could give away Jkaen's role? I've not looked at the setup enough.

Azza post 220: I think this is a particularly weak argument on Gazglum here. Is it beneficial for wolves to keep deadweight town in play? Yes, keeps scum from being hunted out. But is tasunke a bad wagon for wolves to pile onto? I would say it isn't at all. Due to his level of inactivity, tasunke is pretty much a policy lynch for being in the game but not actually IN the game any appreciable amount. I would think from a villager standpoint, it would make sense then for getting rid of tasunke, and as the best wolf is a very villager sounding wolf, then voting in a way that lines up with villager interests isn't bad.

Gazglum vs. Serdoa A good set or arguments here, but I don't see anything particularly damning. Serdoa makes a mostly well reasoned argument, but Gazglum's rebuttal (And clarification of some of the timeline voting on me that Serdoa had wrong) is pretty airtight, I don't see any holes left there to pry into at this time. So gazglum is either honest villager or very good wolf.

Azza 261: I don't think it sounded forced at all (and I appreciated someone actually making an attempt at emotional niceness in one of these games, whodathunk). And sitting on the fence? Though he's been reasonably cautious, Gazglum has been one of the most stalwart contributors this game. It sounds to me like yopu're trying to make mountains out of molehills.

Rowain vs. Zak I feel like I'm missing something here, so I'll need to look back through Day 1, time permitting, before I have an informed response to offer.

Re: Jkaen again I don't feel like going after people just because they tried to look at a meta perspective is a good way to go. Yeah, I generally don't like meta-cases, and there's usually much less we can learn from those than "regular" hunting, but persecution just based on that is weak.

Okay, feeling decently suspicious on Azza right now, I'm going to put a vote there and go through and analyze his posts more specifically now.

[BRickAstley]

(try #2, forum ate my post when I was at page 17 )

A Study in Azzaure

Post 9: Page 1, joke post, not worth serious consideration as reasoning.

Post 43: Same as I've previously posted, small post with tidbits repeated from others.

Post 60: This post particularly irks me. A post like #43 can be justifiable every once in a while, even if it's bad. But then, you defend it, specifically the fact that it was short and didn't offer very much, and try to sell that off as just trying to see what other people say about it? The WW game that I like to play has players trying to hunt through posts and players statements for inconsistencies, and press then upon finding some in order to see how they react. Just offering short tidbits and then saying "Yeah this is totes fine NBD" just seems scummy.

Post 61: I would kinda understand where you're coming from, except I've been doing my best to offer reasoning for what I say, instead of being sall short about it and saying "No I say it's fine deal with it."

Post 94: Calling out absentee tasunke, nothing particularly reprehensible about that, standard policy village play.

Post 115: Yeah, I agree with Lewwyn here, there's a difference. A player who hasn't shown up at all? Might get mod replaced, but if not, hasn't had an opportunity to show their worth. Whereas you HAVE been around but still had a similar relative contribution level, which shows that even though you're around, your presence has helped little. At this point, tasunke was a Schrodinger's cat, unknown if he was dead or alive, but your posting was just dead.

Post 120: No, you're either not seeing or pretending not to see the reasoning behind the argument on you. And you're not posting enough to get a read other than just as a scum trying to fly under the radar.

Post 122: Hey I'm not the only one getting somewhat emotional.

Post 125: (and novice 126) Yeah, that's all there really is to the starting post, though I don't think people are putting anything into that anymore.

Post 158: I don't think this has any influence on scumminess or not, but wouldn't it have been more helpful to just have said that earlier instead of letting tension build?

Post 192: Well, we lost a villager, which is suboptimal for sure. But I get what you're saying.

Post 220: Like I stated: " I think this is a particularly weak argument on Gazglum here. Is it beneficial for wolves to keep deadweight town in play? Yes, keeps scum from being hunted out. But is tasunke a bad wagon for wolves to pile onto? I would say it isn't at all. Due to his level of inactivity, tasunke is pretty much a policy lynch for being in the game but not actually IN the game any appreciable amount. I would think from a villager standpoint, it would make sense then for getting rid of tasunke, and as the best wolf is a very villager sounding wolf, then voting in a way that lines up with villager interests isn't bad." Talking a little more about the Gazglum cases he's referenced, I don't see anything that deserves that much concern. I don't think there's nothing wrong about being hesitant with votes, we need to vote and have strong cases, but votes aren't to be thrown about willy nilly either.

Post 261: " I don't think it sounded forced at all (and I appreciated someone actually making an attempt at emotional niceness in one of these games, whodathunk). And sitting on the fence? Though he's been reasonably cautious, Gazglum has been one of the most stalwart contributors this game. It sounds to me like yopu're trying to make mountains out of molehills. "

Post 265: I would really want to see more reasoning on why you are so set on Gazglum, other than saying he;s too noncommittal when he's shown himself to be making an effort that's so far been way much more than yours.

Post 272: Okay here we go, an alternate reason: "It's the (what appeared to be) forced consoling that makes you more suspicious IMO" (Disclaimer: this also fits into the groove of accusing people of faking emotions, which as i've previously discussed isn't a road i'm going down again). I just don't see that sort of an attitude to be something to grow lots of suspicion on though. Also: you're saying "you're reasoning is fine, but the cases are easy, so I'm satisfied voting you". THis seems particularly damning to me; yes, sometimes you have to make the work into finding out a hard case in order to get scum rooted out, but cases that could be considered "easy" are also needed, because those find scum too. Being satisfied on a case just because someone has only made "easy" cases? Nope, not buying it, it feels like a cheap out.

Post 277: again digging your grave.

But basically, don't want to get distracted from Gazglum v Brick unless a good alternative pops up/

How in the world is this even believed to be good? You keep hunting in this game, not stop. Putting your focus on a particular person is fine if you have a strong conviction is fine, but to say that because you're doing so you don't even want to dig into other cases, unless another one pops up? That's quite the fun lazy way to go about it, so that if you don't go after any one else, you can be "oh no one showed me a better case oh well". I se absolutely nothing wrong with looking at other cases, it's not like you're going to forget about the "main" one you have if you've been thinking about it for any length of time.

So to sum it up:

I look at your play Azza, and I see someone who's content to slide on by with weak but possibly passable arguments, and not putting much risk out into your argumenting. Your reasoning you give is quite suboptimal, and many of your opinions seem to just be plain anti-village. You seem like a very slinky wolf, and have stood out to me more than anyone else, so for that reason, we have to chop you.

Azza for emphasis.