New Civilization 5 Expansion - Brave New World

[antisocialmunky]

This is Civilization and Hitler would just make me want to make Jewish Nazis.

[Tasunke]

"Hitler didn't rule long enough to be relevant."

-- Tasunke

well only 2-3 times as long as Jefferson Davis . Anyway the confederate states only existed for 4 years, Germany has a lot longer history, so I don't think the comparison is apt at all. Hitler was in power longer than some of the leaders already in Civ 4, anyway (Washington, Churchill and Lincoln at least, I'm sure there are more).

bah, I overstated my case on one point


like, CSA/ USA is the same thing, is what I was saying .... liberally speaking. I mean, if a country lives for 4 years you don't call it its own thing. What I was saying, or part of it anyways, was that CSA and USA might as well be the same thing, that it would be easier to just add JD as a leader for USA rather than make a whole new empire.

*that* is what I had to say in relation to Jefferson Davis and CSA lol xD

(at least as far as how long it was)





Now Hitler, I was considering Nazi Germany a separate state than Germany, because it was just so radically different politically and culturally. The only real comparisons are Communist Russia and Communist China, but the difference between Nazi Germany and Communist China is that the Communist nations lasted longer.

I was saying that Naziism as a national influence did not last long enough to become a permanent part of their cultural identity, and instead has become a shameful stain they wish to forget about/ never repeat/ etc.

[Tasunke]

ya get one silly quote .... >_<

I meant as far as a permanent cultural Identity >_<




yay for abstractions ....

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Anywho, I see where yall got the quote from ... 'neither ruled long enough' etc ... I just meant for their own personal goals. JD would have been fine with 20-30 years, he wasn't out to change/rule the world .... Hitler however wanted 1000 years. I feel that neither ruled long enough to be as significant as they wanted to be.

When all is said and done, they BOTH lost the war. They ruled, they fought, and they lost. Of course, JD was just some random senator, already been a politician for awhile, he was really just an extension of southern politics ....

the fact that we are really comparing the two in any way is kind of silly. They are just too different to make light off-hand comparisons even remotely correct, like you have to treat each separately. But sense we had some hairbrained idea for comparing the two, I did the best that I could.

One similarity that I do see, however, is that both ruled for the duration of their war(s) .... Hitler's war just started before anyone else realized it. Perhaps part of the reason it took him longer to start his war was because in the Modern Era, you definitely need the Iron and Steel .... building an army of Steel takes longer than building an army of flesh. Or, at least it did for de-militarized, de-economied post-Weimarr Germany.

So as I said, both lived long enough to fight their wars and lose, and see their policies reversed. But, really, there is no good comparison of the two >_< ... I mean, one wanted to take over the world and immediately start the slaughter of an entire people .... while the other just wanted to sit in his corner and keep doing what he was doing .... yes he had slaves, but the only way you could compare him to hitler is if he was like ... "okay, see all these slaves? the north is gonna want to free em so lets just round em up and kill em all first" ... yea, the only way he could be compared to hitler on ethics grounds is if he had decided to round up and kill all the slaves. Nuff said. >_<

[Bigger]

by that bar you'd have to remove Julius Caesar, too, and many other leaders.

[Tasunke]

not really.

Julius Caesar won the war, made many changes for rome, then got killed, civil war started, his successor Octavian won the next war .... true Octavian had a greater impact, but Julius Caesar's vision lived on. Plus, Caesar wasn't that much radically different than the rest of Roman society .... whereas Hitler wanted Germany to become more like the Mongols + Evil Scientists combo, while that wasn't really their thing.

[spellman]

Well, I feel like Civ takes its queues from history but cares about the underlying game mechanics more. The game comes first, and is themed/colored by historical roots. So you select out broad strokes like "Defensive" vs "Expansive" as a common value in many civilizations and it matches defense vs offense in game mechanics.

Contrast to the Paradox Grand Strategy where they seemed to start with what influences history and build a game from there to represent those threads. Because in those times you couldn't go to war without plausible cause, they don't let you either. It also happens to act as a handy way to reign in crazy all-out war machines.

In that way I can see why they'd select certain over-simplification characteristics and leaders. The average Westerner (sorry, we're super Ameri-Euro Centric) thinks "Oh, Japan, isolationism and Samurai!!!" instead of "Oh yeah the formation due to the Shogunate and the historical differences between Dynasty X and Dynasty Y." Similarly for Germany you go "Kaisers! And Tanks! Industrial juggernaut!" and less "Germanic city-states that eventually formed the HRE which became Germany with the rise of nationalism." It's much easier to adapt the oversimplified traits to the explicit broad game mechanics. We're talking about a game where you have 1 or 2 units per era and all of your economy is whisked under the simplification of "Gold per tile".

BTW, Tasunke, your Communist China as separate justification doesn't fly since I'm pretty sure Mao is a China leader in Civ 4 alongside the ancient Qin Shi Huang.

[Tasunke]

Mao and Stalin are leaders, yes. They lead their entire lives and won the wars they fought in >_<

also, didn't Qin unify china, and the guy that took over after his death basically start the Han dynasty or something? And before that was working for Qin? I'd hardly call that no impact.




I think what Hitler did does have an impact in our historical records of course, not for the land he took or the laws he made, but by the evil things he did, and how a dark and despotic rule could arise from a fairly peaceable time period. The german people are not nazis, yet for a small period of time Nazism held absolute power. Hitler's legacy isn't on anything tangible, its more of a lesson to remember what darkness we can become, and what to steer away from.

[Sullla]

OK guys. If you want to keep discussing this stuff, please start a new thread in the Off Topic section. This thread is supposed to be about the upcoming Civ5 expansion. Please keep things at least somewhat on topic.

[Rowain]

Apology Sulla but I think this must be answered here.

EITHER WAY, I feel that their impacts on the Societies they belonged to were either forgotten or reversed.
-> Hitler, brief empire (far to brief, imho, to put his standards and practices into common cultural use by the german people. IF the german reich had lasted a few hundred years then Id think the German people would have been more pervaded by Naziism, but as it is I think the Nazis were not in power long enough to permanently change the German way of thinking. Or are we saying that Germans are permanently influenced by what happened then and that they are a DUMBASS for censorship? If its just denial then ffs ... but as far as Empires go, yes the Nazi Empire was laughably brief. Whereas American presidencies are usually 4-8 years anyways.)

Hitlers effect is not his war and all the death and destruction that happened during that.

His still lasting effect is his elimination of Jews from German/Austrian society. They were one main pillar of the culture, economic and science and both Austria and Germany have lost a lot due to him. The second still lasting effect (and one reason why the anti-nazi-laws exist) is that he has proven that you can run a state that eliminates anybody who doesn't fit a certain profile with strict discipline and that people loves it.
Read the book(or watch the movie) "The wave" to see how easy it is to set such a system up. In this experiment you also see for what persons such a system is a big temptation.
There are still a lot who think that a "strong Leader" who eliminates all nay-sayers would be a good political solution (just look at Hungary).

[Ichabod]

Steam made a mistake and BNW pre-order was being sold for $ 3,54 brazilian reais, which accounts for something like U$ 2,00. I could have bought BNW for everyone here for the price of one single expansion. Not that I'd do this, but it's a bit funny nonetheless. It seems they messed up by exchanging the Russian currency price and the Brazilian currency price, which made the game extremely expensive in Russia and extremely cheap in Brazil.