Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Sullla]

There is one big trouble with going for an alliance with a team against another, and that is that it lessens diplomatic flexibility. Just see how us accepting WPC's idea of a 2v1 against the German team has impacted us:

• It forced us into a poor agreement with CFC so we could secure our eastern border
  
• It has forced us to come close to betraying a team that was starting to turn around, and was really helpful to us
  
• It forced us into a path for a war on T150, when we could have continued for a while with peaceful expansion (mostly crappy cities, yes) and economic growth
  

I'm not saying it was a bad decision at the time, or even a wrong decision, but it has had a huge impact on how we've approached the game and forced short- and medium-term decisions that weren't optimal for us, in the hope for a long-term gain.

I really don't want to derail this thread away from actual important diplo discussion, but I did feel that this needed a response. I completely reject this view of our past history, and I think it's a poor representation of the game that we played thus far. We did not sign a "poor agreement" with CFC; we signed a deal that allowed us to claim the disputed border lands in peace, tech unopposed to Liberalism, and grab 25 turns to attack and devour a weak neighbor on our opposite side. We have gotten exactly what we expected to get out of that deal, and I'm not a fan of this revisionism that acts as though we were swindled or something by CFC. We're in first place by 300 points on the scoreboard, we've got the biggest army, the highest crop yield, and the most beakers/techs researched. It was not a poor agreement.

The notion that we were somehow going to be friends with the Germans or something is just silly. We've been committed to attacking them for the last 70 turns, ever since we first signed the Turn 150 NAP and they found themselves embroiled in an early game war. This has been the gameplan for over six months. A few resource trades in the last dozen turns haven't meant anything. Even if we did somehow want to be friends with the Germans... what then? Where are we going to expand? CFC and CivPlayers would require extremely difficult, long, grueling wars to defeat. Taking over WPC's territory would put us in a laughable strategic position, bordering nearly every team in the game. We can't just sit on our behind and tech upwards; that's a losing strategy. We don't have enough land to win the game right now. The overwhelming best plan in our situation is to identify a weak neighbor and take them out in the midgame. We are in the process of doing exactly that, and it's been the absolute rock core of our strategy almost since the game began.

The third point up there is just wrong. There's no more room for peaceful expansion on the map, no quality city spots at least. We calculated 75 turns ago that the map would be essentially full right around Turn 150, and picked that as the moment to strike. And... that's basically exactly what happened. CFC saw the same thing that we did, and targeted the same time to act. As I said before, we are not going to win this game by planting a couple more tundra and ice cities. Those spots are worth founding, but will never have anywhere near the strength of the equatorial jungle and floodplains regions. I simply do not agree that we would have been better off sitting around and taking no military action. That's the Apolyton route, and it's a losing one in the endgame when other teams have double your territory.

Did accepting an alliance limit our diplomatic flexibility? Yes, it did. However, it dovetailed perfectly with the strategy that we had been planning for months on end, and it gained us our only friend that we have in the game right now. I think we're exactly where we want to be in the game currently, outside of things we can't control (e.g. the Spanish being total idiots who are getting themselves killed).

Look, I mean no offense kjn, but that post suggested that we were doing a really poor job of running the game recently, and I simply cannot agree with that.

[scooter]

The problem is, we aren't kneecapping CP. They'll probably have units in place so IIRC, if we can't get CivFR on board then its unlikely we can take CP out of the game. Heck, CFC might pull out a loop hole and declare early.

Well, agreed. The other thing that frequently breaks up dogpiles is when there's an unfair ratio of effort/spoils. If CivPlayers takes the brunt of our military on T170 and then CFC waltzes in 5T later at little cost, that's a terrible outcome for CP. Not saying that's likely to happen, but the fear of it happening may weigh on CP.

[kjn]

[ snip ]
Look, I mean no offense kjn, but that post suggested that we were doing a really poor job of running the game recently, and I simply cannot agree with that.

None taken. The point of my message wasn't so much that we've played poorly (we evidently have not done that, given our in-game situation), or that going to war at around T150 was a bad estimate, or that the Germans weren't the logical target for us (they are). It was that a lot of our foreign policy during the last 50 or so turns has been fixed due to the agreement between us and WPC, limiting our diplomatic flexibility.

There are advantages to both getting a long-term agreement and in having diplomatic flexibility, and the point is more to know when to what, not that either intrinsically is better than the other.

[antisocialmunky]

I don't think it has limited the diplo flexibility at all. When you look in to all possibilities, yes but when you are looking at the practical choices, not really. What else would you have wanted to happen? Have WPC + Spanish + RB fight CFC? You know what has really limited diplomatic flexibility? The fact that RB has been winning all the stats for the last 100 turns.

[scooter]

Brief chat with Yossarian from CFC. He mentions the marble thing. The rest is mostly fluff, but it seems worthwhile to paste here. I don't think either side said anything the other didn't know, he just sort of confirmed my working theory and that's it.

YossarianLives
Hi scooter, are you available?

scooter
I'm here now. what's up?

YossarianLives
Sorry, I was on the phone
I actually have good news
We can push the Marble gift up about ten turns, to start on T156

scooter
Okay thanks, that works great

YossarianLives
Cool
Well, I think that's pretty much it
I don't suppose I can convice you to stop gifting freebies to our enemy

scooter
Haha. Yeah probably not. T175 looms and all that

YossarianLives
Or to rejoin Team Gillette, I guess those two would be on my wishlist
About T175, did you get our email?

scooter
Hah, I sometimes forget that game is still going! I'm a little spoiled from other teams forums and too busy, but I hope things are going ok in that game
Yep, we got it. Message received and understood.

YossarianLives
Well, if you have anything to bring to the table for an extension, we're all ears. Just let us know

scooter
what kind of thing would even interest you? it sounds like you guys have put effort into convincing other teams to join against us, so I figured you were pretty committed to war

YossarianLives
No, anything can happen in the next 25 turns, so we're not committed to anything 100%
But we do want a shot at winning this game!
A lot will depend on what happens with the Zulu war
And any other wars about to break out

scooter
Yep. If you can't wrap that war up quick enough, it may be a wee bit difficult to invade us :P
although it seems like you aren't having much trouble so far. power graph is most definitely in your favor

YossarianLives
Well, we don't have anything "explosive" quite yet, as you claim to have
A war between the two of us could definitely result in both of us getting dragged down. Cooperation between the two of us can lead both of us to the top
But we don't want a straight NAP that just lets you develop economically while we're left behind

scooter
right. If you plan to invade us, you know it really has to work, or else CivFr just becomes the new runaway. we've tracked their infrastructure enough to know they're definitely ahead of us in that area
any time the #1 army and #2 army square off, that usually ends poorly for both

YossarianLives
Well like I said, we're not committed to anything at T175 quite yet, and we want to keep it that way for a little while longer
But if you have anything that brings us back in the running, we'd absolutely listen and consider it
I have to be honest though that it would need to be in our favor for the team to approve it
Anyway, I've probably said too much already. I only had authorization to talk about the Marble gift. Caledorn being away really hurts our diplo game, and I don't want to damage us further by blurting too much

scooter
Just curious - why not try to add more land from easier targets?

YossarianLives
I'm around if you need to get a hold of us for any reason, and we'll let you know when Caledorn is back
That's what we're trying to do!

scooter
well, after Zulu :P. UCiv is there too. A war with us on T175 is kind of going all-in on your game

YossarianLives
Like I said, nothing is off the table...
Don't want to say too much more than that...

scooter
Anyway, I'll just say: we may well reach a point before T175 where we're no longer interested in a NAP extension. So if you guys wait too long to change your mind (or your war with the Zulu goes poorly), we may stick with letting the NAP expire and see what happens.
obviously the next 20T could go in a *lot* of different directions. I'm just saying, please don't assume that on T173 or something if things don't line up for you guys like you're hoping, we'll still want peace.

YossarianLives
Yep, understood. We know we're not the only team that has members with suicidal tendencies that lust for blood

scooter
Hah! yep, every team has their crazies
By the way, if you guys do manage to completely wipe out the Spanish team, i will be a little sad. Those guys send the funniest emails
not very frequent, but they're great

YossarianLives
Yeah, tell me about it. Well, I'll tell you what. If we get any of them to join our team after we take them out, I'll advocate that they take charge of our emails to you guys
That way everybody wins!

scooter
Hah, well good luck with that. Thanks for the chat, if anything changes and/or you have any questions, poke me anytime

YossarianLives
Yeah, aside from the threats, it was very nice chatting with you
Will do, and you can do the same

scooter
Hah, apologies if it came across as threats. I'm just trying to explain that we're forced to react to what you guys do

My guess on CFC's perspective on our relationship: the bridge is not burned, but there doesn't seem to be much purpose for its existence so they are prepping the matches and gasoline.

[scooter]

The only way I see them being amenable to a NAP is if we were to divide up some other team with them (after both our wars are over), like UCiv or something... which is pretty unrealistic.

Hopefully I didn't push too hard on my comment regarding "we may not always want peace." I don't want them thinking they have all the power regarding the NAP and can wait until the last possible moment to negotiate for one if something changes their mind. I probably should have phrased it differently, but I'm not too worried about it.

[kjn]

Heh. I think the CFC team has even more of an internal split with regards to us than we have regards to them.

[scooter]

Heh. I think the CFC team has even more of an internal split with regards to us than we have regards to them.

That was my thought too. Kind of interesting, not sure what to make of it.

[darrelljs]

Six pages behind . Just wanted to say great work scooter on both those chats and to give my $0.02 that the stick will be more fruitful with CP (and by extension CFC ) than the carrot.

Darrell

[antisocialmunky]

I think they are just leading you on.