The Quarterdeck - Turn Discussion Thread

[thestick]

Okay next question, how much are we willing to sacrifice for conquest? We could start whipping Catapults/Pikes now, research Theology/Military Science, then start building City Raider 2 Maces to upgrade to Grenadiers - at the cost of an arm and a leg.

Actually, that sounds like a good idea.

[Cornflakes]

Our economy is good, our production is poor. Might as well take advantage of that through the upgrade. I wish we had banks though because we're going to be running max gold for a while to fund to mass upgrades.

[Cornflakes]

I got this from Q via forum PM ... haven't responded yet.

What deals do you have with TEAM?
What deals do you want?

A brief history would be nice.

Oh and, too be blunt, are you declaring war on us soonish? Cause that's what I've heard...

So we say ...

Q,

We've had an NAP and OB with TEAM since about T100 (no scouting since T145). The current NAP expires T180. Here is the relevant email ...

I had mentioned some time ago that I would be fine with extending our NaP to t180.

Giving you the chance to do that now, if it is your wish.

As to declaring war soonish? There is a non-aggression pact in place until T180 which we certainly have no intention of breaking. Since you started as a lurker you must know that M3's early attack cut off a sizable chunk "our" share of the map, and long-term our biggest weakness is land area. At some point this must be fixed at the cost of one of our neighbors (TEAM or M3). If you check the power graph though you'll clearly see that we are in no position to take offensive for some time.

So what are we really planning? TEAM is looking more and more like a low-hanging fruit. I think we should not renew our NAP. I doubt we'll be ready in 15 turns, but we'll have sufficient force by that time to prevent invasion and we can wait for the opportune time.

[Cornflakes]

In case it wasn't clear, I haven't responded to Q yet.

Also, I logged in but didn't play either.

[Cornflakes]

I was logging in to look around, and realized that you'd already logged in to play.

[thestick]

GAH Obviously no way we're telling him we're declaring war...

Q,

We've had an NAP and OB with TEAM since about T100 (no scouting since T145). The current NAP expires T180. Here is the relevant email ...
Quote:
I had mentioned some time ago that I would be fine with extending our NaP to t180.

Giving you the chance to do that now, if it is your wish.

As to declaring war soonish? There is a non-aggression pact in place until T180 which we certainly have no intention of breaking. Since you started as a lurker you must know that M3's early attack cut off a sizable chunk "our" share of the map, and long-term our biggest weakness is land area. At some point this must be fixed at the cost of one of our neighbors (TEAM or M3). If you check the power graph though you'll clearly see that we are in no position to take offensive for some time.

Seems pretty obvious we'll declare the minute the NAP expires. How about the 'don't say anything' approach?

We've had an NAP and OB with TEAM since about T100 (no scouting since T145). The current NAP expires T180. Here is the relevant email ...
Quote:
I had mentioned some time ago that I would be fine with extending our NaP to t180.

Giving you the chance to do that now, if it is your wish.
/endquote

We initially had a screenshot swap with TEAM, but that fell through. We got into a little border dispute over the rights to the Gold tile on our eastern border, but it did not lead to war. We haven't had much contact since.

We do not want to renew the NAP yet.

Though it should be bleeding obvious we're declaring; he knows he's the weak dog on the block, we're the only team with Chemistry and Military Science is a short hop away, we just researched Theology, we're being strangely non-commital with the NAP...

As for Aquaduct in Havana, I don't think that's a good idea, 100 hammers for 2 food per turn is a pretty bad conversion. As for the Market in San Juan... we only make 15 GPT breakeven there, so we'll only get about 3-4 GPT extra from it... doesn't seem worth it.

So just to clarify, the proposed plan:
-Tech Philosophy, Nationalism, Military Science
-Adopt Theocracy (5 EXP Maces)
-Draft Muskets
-Whip Maces, promote to City Raider 2
-Promote to Grenadiers
-CONQUER!

[thestick]

Also, NAP with M3 expires T170. Need to renew that, right?

[Cornflakes]

So just to clarify, the proposed plan:
-Tech Philosophy, Nationalism, Military Science
-Adopt Theocracy (5 EXP Maces)
-Draft Muskets
-Whip Maces, promote to City Raider 2
-Promote to Grenadiers
-CONQUER!

I fully agree that we should be planning towards absorbing TEAM ... I'm just not sure that this is the best way to do this. Nationalism requires giving up Bureaucracy. We'll only get maybe 1-2 muskets per turn after the initial round of drafting, and we have no Globe Draft Camp to make ongoing use. Here's an overview shot of TEAM's territory:




The first 2 cities will be easy. Drop our stack next door T0, capture T1. The city in the southwest should be ok, but after that we're stuck slogging through TEAM culture. They'll have road access to hit any city that we capture. We MUST either come swiftly and completely engulf before they have time to react or we MUST come in such overwhelming force that we can sustain getting bashed to bits by Catapults and continue pushing forward. Our MFG is awful, so I doubt we'll be able to achieve overwhelming force. It's likely that the plan outlined is the best (especially since I just remembered that we are SPI and can swap Nationhood on and off every time the draft window rolls around), but here are some other options that all have roughly the same beaker cost.

– Nationalism > draft > Military Science > upgrade as outline above.

– Tech to Astronomy while building Cats/Maces, then Military Tradition while building Galleons and upgrading our maces to grenadiers. With Galleons we can sail the long way around, out of sight, and come down from behind. I'd say time the 4-5 galleons to arrive 3-4 turns after we declare war ... We capture the western cities, garrison them heavily, and sit there. Then a turn later our Galleons appear out of the fog in their backlines after they have moved everything west to deal with our land invasion.

– Tech Steel ... Since we don't have hammers this probably isn't a worthwhile option. I'd go Astronomy first, but just throwing it out.

– Delay another 15 turns and get Military Tradition for Cuirassiers after Nationalism ... or choose Military Tradition instead of Military Science. 2-movers enhance our chance of making this war swifter. Since we're planning to go Nationalism I think this might actually be the best. Yeah, sunk costs from teching Chemistry already, but I think we'll get better use from Cuirassiers than Grenadiers.

[Cornflakes]

Renew NAP with M3. Will discuss Q PM in an hour

[thestick]

Q has Vassalage, so all his Longbows will be CG2. CG2 is +45% in Cities, CR2 is +45% attack versus cities. Most of his cities are 40% cultural defence.

C1/Cover Cuirassair vs. CG2 Longbow in 40% defence with no fortify: 36.33% odds of victory (+25 intrensic city defence, +45 from City Garrison, 40% culture)
CR2 Grenadier vs. CG2 Longbow in 40% defence: 36.2% odds of victory

C1/Cover Cuirassair vs. CG2 Longbow in 40% defence with hill: 25.00% odds of victory
CR2 Grenadier vs. CG2 Longbow in 40% defence: 23.99% odds of victory

So Cuirassiers by themselves won't be strong enough to take his cities without suiciding a bunch of lemmings. Also, C1/Cover is just about as good as City Raider...? Weird. I think we should go with Grenadiers, the extra speed won't do us much good if we have to wait for one-move Catapults.

Okay, to be fair, Cuirassier logistics are a lot easier.