Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[DaveV]

Re Spanish: Can we tell them that they are not whipping enough...

And suggest pillaging some cottages to get the gold for upgrades (and to deny them to CFC)?

You can't get gold from pillaging improvements in your own territory.

My impression is that a fair number of their improvements are no longer in their territory?

[scooter]

My impression is that a fair number of their improvements are no longer in their territory?

How are they supposed to defend their own cities while simultaneously getting units past the CFC army to pillage cottages? That seems completely unrealistic.

Anyway, we got a really bizarre message from Beta of WPC:

Hi Scooter! Beta here. Tatu answered the CivFR question. I was wondering what team they were. I just knew them as the Zulu with Boa as the player.

Just waiting for our turn. No surprises from our end. The German team is slaving some more according to civstats.

We expect to take Warendorf in 2 or 3 turns. Discussing our approach now. It will probably be two.

Is your sense that the bulk of the German forces are still in the south?

Cheers! Beta

Well, the first paragraph seemed bizarre. They think CivFr = Zulu?? Boa is the turn player for Zulu, Spanish Apolyton. Their turn player doesn't even know which team is which?? Crazy .

[scooter]

Also, I'm not ignoring the ongoing CivFr discussion, I'd just like to give it time and let everyone weigh in & discuss. I don't think getting a reply to them is a major rush in our current 3+days/turn pace.

[mostly_harmless]

Re CivFr: Telling them we are going to be in a hot war with CFC T175 is already a very valuable piece of information. I am not in favour of throwing 100+ gold to them in a rush, just because they happen to be declared on by CFC. They are after all still in for the win, I expect.

mh

[scooter]

Re CivFr: Telling them we are going to be in a hot war with CFC T175 is already a very valuable piece of information. I am not in favour of throwing 100+ gold to them in a rush, just because they happen to be declared on by CFC. They are after all still in for the win, I expect.

mh

It's not forgone that we'll be in a hot war with CFC on T175 by any stretch, and I certainly did not say it in the draft. I'm not sure where you're getting either of those from.

[kjn]

Not the only one...I think its money down the drain. We don't need CivFr as an ally, we need them as an enemy of CFC and that's fait accompli.

Depends. I'd rather have a friend than an enemy of my enemy.

If we can give CivFr some material help within 5t or so, then we suddenly have a big-ass stick to use against CivPlayers. They could hope to win against us in a dogpile with CFC and Apolyton - but with CivFr involved on our side? Likewise if CFC wanted their help against CivFr.

Another factor is that if CivFr feels they have a solid friend in us, then they are much more likely to fight it out against CFC.

[kalin]

I have to say that I kind of agree with some of the people voicing concern over giving CivFr gold. I am hoping however that the gift of gold would be in a larger context, that is we'd get OB, maybe a map exchange and some sort of alliance against CFC. I am very curious to see how they react to our email.

Also, regarding the conspiracy theories... while I don't think CFC and CivFr are colluding for some obscure goal, the whole situation is a bit strange. CFC declared but didn't kill the merchant? It would be nice to have some additional info here...

Kalin

[scooter]

Also, regarding the conspiracy theories... while I don't think CFC and CivFr are colluding for some obscure goal, the whole situation is a bit strange. CFC declared but didn't kill the merchant? It would be nice to have some additional info here...

Why should either side give us more info? CFC certainly doesn't trust us, so they won't tell us. CivFr has had basically zero relationship with us or anyone all game long, so why would they tell us. Also, how do you know the merchant didn't get killed? My guess is probably not, but that's not something we can know for sure yet.

There's a painfully simple explanation for what happened. It's the most likely one IMO.
1) Exactly what CivFr said happened: "We had a great merchant which was travelling to CFC capital. We had warm them long time ago and they did agree, but now at one turn from ending his journey, they declare war treacherously to prevent him from doing his mission."
2) So, 1 turn away from Indira, CFC declares war. That doesn't mean they get to attack the merchant, it means it teleports. Look at the map and tell me where it would have teleported to. I would bet no matter what you guess, you're probably wrong, because teleporting is ridiculously difficult to predict.
3) CFC look around after declaring, sees the merchant went to a weird spot, cannot kill it immediately, but maybe they chase it, who knows.
4) CivFr sees the merchant is likely to die if they don't do something, so they spring a (MoM) golden age with the merchant in order to not totally waste it.

That's not a weird or overly complex explanation at all, I don't think it's confusing or unlikely. So can we put the tinfoil hats away and discuss the real issue here? (this is not directed at you personally kalin, it was just the most recent thing to quote and I'm just hoping this will keep us on track)

[Zargon]

Quick point, we're finishing engineering on turn 151 (provided we make enough pillage gold, of course), not 152, and I don't think there's any reason to be secretive about it, especially with a team with alphabet.

Second point, they mentioned gold as a possibility for countering their forces in reference to CFC invading. Well, is CFC invading or just declaring war to get rid of a merchant? Any amount that we realistically offer as a gift isn't going to go very far in terms of upgrading units. CivFr doesn't have engineering, so it's not like they're going to do pike upgrades. I suppose they might do longbow upgrades. I suppose they might use the gold to research engineering next. Is CivFr acting like a team going to war? Are they whipping their cities? (not a rhetorical question, I'm not sure). Is a gold gift now going to upgrade longbows or just get plowed into the next economic tech? I feel like that's a relevant question when it comes to how much to offer them.

Maybe we could do something like offer to bear half the cost of upgrading units, up to like 200-300 gold on our side (after finishing engineering, of course). That way we get to make a relatively generous offer while not simply propelling CivFr forward in the case that the CFC/CivFr war is a cold war over a misunderstanding, which is looking likely.

Fake edit:
I thought it was confirmed from war weariness that the CFC didn't capture a CivFr unit on their declaration turn?
Also, it was mentioned that great merchants don't get kicked out on wardecs, though I don't know that for a fact.

[pindicator]

This is a huge opportunity ti differentiate ourselves from CFC, well worth a little gold. If we try to realpolitik the situation we're going to look no better an option than CFC.