Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[Bigger]

we're spinning our wheels now.

There's a risk, but we only really have one friend atm - and they aren't going to be much help beyond a buffer. Its worth the risk to potentially gain a friend - even if we just got open borders down the road it would be beneficial. we can't be so risk averse that we miss out on an opportunity.

[DaveV]

How are [Spanish] supposed to defend their own cities while simultaneously getting units past the CFC army to pillage cottages? That seems completely unrealistic.

Again, my impression without having actually logged into the game: they can't defend their cities. Is a chariot, say, better sittiing in one of their cities or running off to pillage something? The latter may hurt CFC more than giving them easy XP. Just making wild suggestions.

[kjn]

Quick point, we're finishing engineering on turn 151 (provided we make enough pillage gold, of course), not 152, and I don't think there's any reason to be secretive about it, especially with a team with alphabet.

Agree. They are more likely to be honest with us if we are honest, up-front, and give good reasons for why we can't send gold right now.

Second point, they mentioned gold as a possibility for countering their forces in reference to CFC invading. Well, is CFC invading or just declaring war to get rid of a merchant?

I think I can say with certainty that CFC are not invading CivFr yet. They still have four Spanish cities to take, but once they take Chinook (that barb city that CivFr took and the barbs took back) their main army is quite close to CivFr's northern border with Apolyton. So CivFr are probably nervous about an invasion, especially if Apolyton joins in.

As for military, CivFr doesn't have pikes, but they do have HBR, Construction, and ivory. Ie, they can whip out war elephants, and they can do so now, in numbers. CFC's army right now is a one-trick pony, so war elephants would do nicely to counter them. Engineering would though be very helpful for them in getting units to the front, and they might have been going for some other tech first, and now need to crash research Economics.

So I think we can probably ask them how they intend to use the funds, and tell them that we can only divert some gold their way on T153 at the earliest.

Is CivFr acting like a team going to war? Are they whipping their cities? (not a rhetorical question, I'm not sure). Is a gold gift now going to upgrade longbows or just get plowed into the next economic tech? I feel like that's a relevant question when it comes to how much to offer them.

Agreed. That said, I think we have to treat at least Engineering as a valid military tech for them. I doubt they will be going for upgrading units. They can whip longbows and war elephants, are in a golden age so can get insane production, but the likely front is a fair bit away from their core. Thus, their bottleneck in defence is probably logistics.

Fake edit:
I thought it was confirmed from war weariness that the CFC didn't capture a CivFr unit on their declaration turn?
Also, it was mentioned that great merchants don't get kicked out on wardecs, though I don't know that for a fact.

CFC has killed a CivFr unit, probably a scouting/observer unit. We should ask about that, I think.

[antisocialmunky]

The risk is CivFR and CFC making up if we wait too long. Also factor in the translation time.

For our first message:
1) We can send all the gold we can spare, we're finishing up a tech run to Engineering so we don't have much right now. Also massive war.
2) CFC aren't very friendly, their diplo has been to only the letter of the agreement.
3) CFC for all intents and purposes have sent us a war declaration with the message where they declined an NAP extension.
4) OB will benefit us both with some extra trade income.
5) Do you need any resources?

Then depending on how they respond:
1) CP and CFC are plotting together against RB.
2) However, because you are now at war they might be plotting against you to cripple you before you can intervene in a war against RB.
3) We should, at least until the CFC and CP cartel is addressed, cooperate with each other.

Then if they ask about how we intend to help them:
1) We have an escape clause in our NAP with CFC?

I'm not really sure how we will end up helping CivFr in the event of a CP + CFC preemptive strike. They have better diplo arrangements.

Edit:

Well to explain my reasoning, if we just try and help CivFR during this 'war' it might be a very short term thing. So lets be generous and them inform them of the longer term problem of CivFR and CFC and how they might actually take advantage of the war declaration to take them out so CFC and come after us with their CP lackies.

[kalin]

Why should either side give us more info? CFC certainly doesn't trust us, so they won't tell us. CivFr has had basically zero relationship with us or anyone all game long, so why would they tell us. Also, how do you know the merchant didn't get killed? My guess is probably not, but that's not something we can know for sure yet.

Scooter, first thanks for answering I had the same thoughts regarding what could have happened, except... I was/am under the impression that the GM (and great people in general) don't teleport. That's what makes me wonder. If the GM teleports then I definitely buy your explanation (again I thought the same thing too). If it doesn't teleport then... I still think things don't quite add up. That's all. And by the way, I didn't mind at all your answer

EDIT: Regarding getting more info. I agree that CFC has no reason to give us info, we have a cold war going on right now. I am also aware that communication with CivFr may be a bit difficult to manage, so I agree that it may not be worth pressing on getting them to tell us more. However, it would be nice to have from civfr the explanation you just gave. I do not think it's worth asking over email, unless maybe if you catch them on a chat or something.

Kalin

[Qgqqqqq]

Great Merchants do not teleport. I think CFC didn't want to alienate them and/or did it when they weren't able to log in.

[pindicator]

Great Merchants do not teleport. I think CFC didn't want to alienate them and/or did it when they weren't able to log in.

Has anyone tested this in WB? We should be certain on this

[pindicator]

Also, i can't find where CivFr said their GM was teleported. So let's be careful we aren't putting words in their moutgs before we accuse them of lying

From CivFr:

Dear Egyptians,

We had a great merchant which was travelling to CFC capital. We had warm them long time ago and they did agree, but now at one turn from ending his journey, they declare war treacherously to prevent him from doing his mission.

Thank you for your assistance proposition, and we would like to hear what you can propose. May be could you declare war at their back to divide their army, or give gold to help us counter their forces?

Best regards,

Mayans

[Twinkletoes89]

I think we need more time and information before we end up giving away anything.

If CivFr has been betrayed by CFC, they aren't going to suddenly make up if we wait a little while. That kind of treachery leaves a stain.

If they start whipping and their power spikes, then they are looking for war and we can buddy up and offer assistance. Right now there's next to no conflict, they've just started a golden age and CFC is distracted with the remnants of Spain.

They are probably doing fine already and this is the worst time to give them gold when we don't know if they will fight. The golden age will make it go very far and we need the gold to keep up

[darrelljs]

Tie the gold to an MDP that starts when allowed by our current deals?

Darrell