EitB 0010 Wishlist/Progress

[Molach]

Suggestion:
Remove mistforms as henchmen.
Remove mistforms as main spawn unit for a good number of turns.

Henchmen as when the RNG builds a group of enemies to pop out of lairs etc?

Yes! BigBad bosses can have 0-4 of those, randomly rolled.
I think I'd fear them way more than just about any boss I could think of. Until I had a way to spot them, anyway.

[Sareln]

Suggestion:
Remove mistforms as henchmen.
Remove mistforms as main spawn unit for a good number of turns.

Henchmen as when the RNG builds a group of enemies to pop out of lairs etc?

Yes! BigBad bosses can have 0-4 of those, randomly rolled.
I think I'd fear them way more than just about any boss I could think of. Until I had a way to spot them, anyway.

'kay. Let me mull it over. Incidentally, the whole thing is hardcoded into python eg. there's a hardcoded list in there that has "Mistform" on it. If you take it off that list, it'll no longer be part of spawns.

[WarriorKnight]

Not sure if this thing is still going or not, but I'd thought I'd add my $0.02 on something I've been thinking about.

I think most of the new leaders introduced in v9 have fit in quite nicely. The only two exceptions are Rivanna and Furia, since neither of them have been picked in a RB game. If you think about it, it's easy to understand why:

[SIZE="4"]Leader: Rivanna the Wraith Lord

Civilization: Svartalfar

Alignment: Evil

Traits: ORG, SUM [/SIZE]

Purpose: Rivanna's role for the Svarts would be to serve as their dual economic-Illusionist leader of choice. Right now the Svarts really have no economic traits, which is a shame for an Elven civ, and it can make it difficult to justify picking them when all three Ljo leaders can take better advantage of their Elfy economies. ORG certainly isn't the greatest economic trait ever devised, but it is something that no other Elven leader has, gives Rivanna a niche as a great leader for spread-out and/or large Elven civs, and Command Posts nicely accommodate any of the diverse Svart unit line options. Summoner should pair very nicely with Illusionists, but is kept in check somewhat by the absence of Arcane.

The Svart's don't necessarily need both Volanna and Rivanna, although I think each brings a unique quality to the civ. I certainly think that they deserve more options than just Faeryl however.

ORG is decent enough, the problem is SUM. SUM Illusions sound decent enough, but nobody wants to use Illusions in the first place, adding another turn won't change much. SUM is normally a bad trait for anyone not called Keelyn anyway. ORG isn't enough to carry her.

What to do? ORG is fine, but SUM needs to be replaced by something. Another possible idea though, since Volanna is regarded as OP, perhaps they could exchange some traits between each other? In fact, making Volanna AGG/SUM would make her remain the fearsome rusher she is now, but with no EXP or any builder traits to lean on (maybe throw in BAR as well if that isn't enough?). Meanwhile Rivanna's EXP/ORG make her a comparable builder to the Ljo's.

[SIZE="4"]Leader: Furia the Mad

Civilization: Balseraphs

Alignment: Neutral

Traits: RAI, CHA, BAR [/SIZE]

Purpose: Added per Mardoc's suggestion for a Balseraphs leader who can make genuine use out of their three special recon-line units. Perpentarch could theoretically use any of the Balseraphs UU very well, but the presence of Insane makes basing any sort of long-term strategy around his traits is an exercise in futility. Raiders pairs perfectly with Recon units, allowing Furia to move her Harlequins deep into enemy territory to Taunt out garrisons or other entrenched forces. Charismatic is there largely because it is a unique pairing with Raiders which also has some nice synergy. Charismatic also fits along with Barbarian on a thematic level, representing Furia's dual-personalities (which is also the reason I suggest her being Neutral). It might not matter for game-play purposes, but it is nice to have leader's traits make thematic sense, if for no other reason than to preserve flavor for SP games . Barbarian also supplies a few gameplay functions. First, it gives the game another Barbarian leader (which it could really use more of), second, it helps temper the otherwise excellent Raiders / Charismatic combination, and finally it allows the Balseraphs to use Loki as a neat pseudo-Ratine, converting barbarian cities.

BAR really sucks, if it weren't a necessary nerf for the Clan I'd suggest removing it. It's a good thing to put onto Averax and other rushers, but there's a reason Charadon has only been played in the dregs game. RAI doesn't work well for any of the Bals unique recon units (Taskmaster makes slaves? how are you going to escort them home deep in enemy territory?, and Harlequin is more like a mage then a ranger thanks to Taunt anyway). CHA is kinda ok but none of the other Bals mechanics really work around promoting units (Mutate isn't affected by CHA).

I'm not really sure what to do about her though. I mean Perpy can do pretty much anything Furia could do aside from SUM (which Keelyn is already doing, as we all know) and BAR. But BAR is terrible, as has been established. TBH I'd suggest removing her, she doesn't anything to the Bals they don't already have in a normal game, unless you want to keep her around for wacky variants with Last Days or a barb heavy game, but I think that's a but too focused for a leader (although Charadon is kinda in the same boat...).

[HidingKneel]

Removing mistforms from the henchman list sounds like a great idea. Popping one mistform is already terrifying if it happens early enough.

WK's suggestion sounds like a good nerf for Volanna. Aggressive + Sinister already makes her one of the best rush leaders; she doesn't need more economic traits on top of the elven economy. Exp/Org Rivanna is probably too good. IMO there's no reason to give economic traits to the Svartalfar: lack of a good leader is what balances them with the Ljosalfar (well, that and the worldspells) Starting with agriculture > starting with exploration, mind mana > Ljosalfar mana, Sinister >>> Dextrous.

[WarriorKnight]

Exp/Org Rivanna is probably too good. IMO there's no reason to give economic traits to the Svartalfar: lack of a good leader is what balances them with the Ljosalfar (well, that and the worldspells) Starting with agriculture > starting with exploration, mind mana > Ljosalfar mana, Sinister >>> Dextrous.

I can see the logic that perhaps EXP/ORG could be too good, although I'm not sure about your claim that there's no reason to give econ traits to Svarts. I don't disagree with any of your reasons, although I'm not sure mana makes any significant difference when comparing elves (although I do agree Svarts have better mana). I think the worldspells need to be considered more then you have, the Ljo one gives them a extremely powerful one-time early defense after FoL that can act as a deterrent while the Svarts is situational at best.

The trouble is, what else could Rivanna be? ORG can probably stay, but with 4 military traits given to the other Svart leaders there isn't much left to pick from. SPI maybe, but's that's also a top tier trait so it wouldn't help much. I'm not sure if there's another unique trait combination with ORG that doesn't exist already tbh, perhaps PHI if Cassiel is changed back to IND, but aside from that, I doubt it.

[The Black Sword]

Rivanna was actually my third pick in 27.

Maybe I overestimate summoner, but organised command posts help you get to mages faster and then your mages have a nice bonus.

With Volanna out, I prefer Rivanna over Faeryl, but that's probably in part because I'm afraid I wouldn't make the best use out of Raiders.

[HidingKneel]

That's a good point. Rivanna is probably well-balanced with Faeryl as-is.
Faeryl of the Svartalfar has three traits which are all individually pretty good (Arcane-Sinister-Raiders), but push you in three different directions to take advantage of them (since recon units can't pillage, you really need to build mounted units to take full advantage of Raiders). I think Summoner is a pretty lousy trait, but Org is at least something that will help you no matter what you try to do, and they synergize if you want to go down the arcane line.

What about making Volanna Agg/Ing? It's a lot weaker than Agg/Exp, yet still has pretty good synergy (since the fawn -> satyr upgrade is expensive). Though maybe that's athematic: really it would be better to push the Svartalfar away from FoL towards Esus. Speaking of which: that's a good argument in favor of Summoner, which makes an archmage hero really appealing.

Hmm.. now I kinda want to try Rivanna out.

[Qgqqqqq]

Agg, Ing is just horribly weak
Personally, ARC/RAI is a great combo, with ARC opening into the summoning game, and RAI meanings they can have excellent mobility (the summons that is) for pillaging and picking off units like workers.
Sure RAI works best with horses, but I think the second best synergy is spell-casters.

[HidingKneel]

Agg, Ing is just horribly weak

I'm not so sure about that. Aggressive/sinister fawns can really mess your opponents up, and you unlock them (and their satyr upgrades) by researching techs that help your economy at the same time. It's probably map/playstyle dependent, but I say Agg/Ing Volanna could beat up Rai/Arc Faeryl and take her lunch money.

[Ellimist]

What about changing Illusionists so that they don't replace mages? So a Svartalfar player could upgrade an adept to either a mage or an illusionist?

I think that would do a LOT to make them more playable. Illusion summons have a role, but it's tough not having access to the typical summons.

Something like that would let us leave the Svartalfar leaders as they are for now.