Diplomacy Master Thread- Helping Your Opponents Beat Themselves

[kjn]

I think it's silly to approach this in a manner that treats the ivory trade and the pillaging as different sorts of things. We knew what we were doing, even if we slid it in before their war, and insisting that we're the good guys and CFC are the bad guys won't get us anywhere.

Both are parts of an escalating set of tensions. We settled Starfall aggressively under our settlement treaty, but then we paid them off with spices and stone, so one cannot say we didn't compensate them handsomely for that. Then CFC settled their border city quite aggressively (if they had settled it 1E it would have the same set of useful tiles, and be much less aggressive towards us). Then they held off on the marble deal in our treaty (a single impi is no threat to settling a city, it's a pain to deal with, yes, but you can still easily settle a city next to it, as long as you cover the city and workers).

The thing is, we sucked those things up and dealt with it. Then we had the further escalation from them, when they shot down our proposal for a lengthened NAP. That's when we approached the Spanish team for the trade, in effect doing another escalation - one can call it doing a shot ahead of the bow of CFC.

But now they've gone ahead and escalated things again. Of course I understand they need to push here, they're the underdog. But that still puts us in the spot where we will need to tell them that stuff they're doing isn't OK by us.

[Brian Shanahan]

@Xenu, you don't kill a bee after it stings you, as it has just committed suicide.

Ths sting barb pulls out taking half the bee's insided with it.

Fine. A wasp. [/pedantic]

I'd have also accepted a queen bee. They've similar stings to wasps. Though if you kill the queen, you've killed the hive unless she's a daughter.

[scooter]

Chat with Yossarian of CFC:

scooter
Hey Yossarian, you around?

YossarianLives
Hey scooter, what's up?

scooter
hey. so I wanted to pass on a note from the team, and chat seemed easier than email
We'd like to firmly request that you stop pillaging tiles in neutral territory on our front with the Incan team

YossarianLives
Right, about that. I'm reminded of your answer when I asked you if your team would stop gifting a Ivory to the Spaniards

scooter
Meh, apples and oranges. This is pretty much NAP abuse and I think you know that

YossarianLives
The pillage gold is very important to our research plans right now. We can't really give it up

scooter
Anyway, we'd be willing to cancel our ivory trade if you would stop pillaging

YossarianLives
Well, I'll definitely take that back to the team. The Ivory has been a pain in the ass to deal with
But your timing isn't the greatest.

scooter
how so?

YossarianLives
Just that soon it might not be so crucial to us that the deal is cancelled. The damage is done at this point...
I'm sure you've noticed their massive whipping recently
I really don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but you're not leaving us a lot of options scooter

scooter
their whipping has been less than impressive, but yeah at least they've tried a little bit

YossarianLives
brb

scooter
Anyway, I'm being realistic here. I said firmly request, but I know reality is we can't really stop you from pillaging
I just want to communicate to you that refusing to stop is damaging and does anger team members, so if you want us to have any hope of a relationship going forward, I'd ask that you stop.
however if you're willing to burn bridges, then I can't do anything to stop that, and I recognize that. So that's your team's call.

YossarianLives
Alright, I appreciate you being straightforward with us here. I'll take this back to the team and see what I can come up with. I've said it before that I do think we can have future cooperation after T175.
I'm not going to lie, we knew that you'd notice the pillaging and you wouldn't be happy. But we also really did feel like your refusal to cancel the ivory trade was meant to signal that all bets are off, every team for themselves

scooter
We got the "all bets are off" feel from finding out that you were trying to rally certain teams against us. It seems we've been in a bit of a cold war for quite some time

YossarianLives
Well, ever since we asked for assistance after the Spaniards first DOW'ed us and you turned us away, it seems like things have been quieter between our two teams
But that doesn't mean things can't turn around
Did you ever get a chance to talk to CivFr about our war, btw?

scooter
We exchanged a message or two, but they haven't written us back in several days now. They're actually supplying the German team with ivory so you aren't the only ones dealing with surprise elephants :P
Anyway, they say you guys declared war in order to sabotage their great merchant mission which you had previously agreed to allow
seems like a pretty dirty trick if that's true. What happened from your perspective?

YossarianLives
Well, I did go back to the team to ask what I can divulge to you about the war. They said I've already said too much :/

scooter
heh, wow, tight-lipped. You hardly said anything, what could I possibly do with the little you told me? haha

YossarianLives
But obviously we disagree with what CivFr told you. We did not sabotage their GM mission, though we could have

scooter
If anything I probably said too much, even just now, but it still seems worthwhile to me

YossarianLives
Maybe you at least believe me now that we aren't secretly working together or anything like that

scooter
well I know the merchant did not die, but they said it came 1T away from completing the mission. you declared war, threatened it with units (did not kill), so they sprung a golden age to keep from wasting it

YossarianLives
No no, the merchant was never threatened.

scooter
I never really believed that it was a conspiracy even slightly, but I figured a little bit of probing on that would maybe get you to at least give me the real reason
so you deny placing multiple military units next to it after declaring war?

YossarianLives
I'm not the turnplayer so I'm not sure exactly what was around there, but let's say that we used non-combat escorts to show our peaceful intent
It's surprising how hard it can be to get a team to talk before playing out their turns, especially considering how slowly the turns are moving

scooter
haha, well I don't know that declaring war to prevent a trade mission is exactly "peaceful" but fair enough

YossarianLives
I'm glad we're in frequent communication, at least. To prevent any misunderstandings.
DOWs don't prevent the ability to perform the mission, iirc
I'm thinking about when Sullla used a merchant in PB2, although they might still have been at peace with their neighbor at that point. It was so long ago the details are a little hazy

scooter
yeah he did that when at peace, the thing there was borders were closed, but merchants can ignore those
anyway, so why did you deny them a trade mission you previously agreed to allow?
and yes, though sure our relations have been strained a bit by natural game causes, I am glad we've chatted frequently. It's been pretty helpful.

YossarianLives
Again, no intention to deny it. But like I said, the team has asked me to stay more tight-lipped about the way, and you are getting more info from me than they'd probably like, already

scooter
Hah, ok fair enough. It's just concerning to us that you would go back on a deal like that, seeing as we have deals with you and we've considered future deals with you

YossarianLives
Well, if we can clear things up and get into a more cooperative mindset with each other, we can probably start sharing more details about what is going on in the wider world.
But we absolutely will not break any deals that we have made. Our NAP is good, our Marble trade is good, everything else in our treaty will be honored


From here it briefly strayed into non-important personal chit-chat, which I'll include just as a demonstration of what I mean about trying not to burn bridges.

YossarianLives
And on a personal note, I really have enjoyed chatting with you. I do hope we can keep it up.

scooter
Fair enough on that, I had to ask. and agreed. Hopefully you've not taken any of my more "direct" comments personally. Just part of the game and the role on the team

YossarianLives
Oh absolutely. I've told the team several times that we're very fortunate to have you as diplomat. Based on what I've seen from your personality in other games we played, I know that you'd never lie, deceive, cheat, anything like that.
Kind of a Team Gillette spoiler from way back in the beginning of the game, I remember when the team suggested we tell Trolls that I had the highest post count on the team, just to throw them off, and you put your foot down and said "No, we're not lying to them"
That's why I was a little disappointed you're acting as ambassador to everyone. I was hoping some of the TEAM founders would be dealing with the other teams.

scooter
well thanks, I appreciate that. i've appreciated all interactions i've had with both you and caledorn. our teams don't always agree on stuff of course, but I enjoy our chats
haha, a couple of the TEAM founders have ideas of what we should say to teams, and they probably get tired of me overruling them

YossarianLives

YossarianLives
So, I noticed that both our wars were less eventful last turn with no cities captured for the first time since your war started. Things starting to slow down a little for you?

scooter
Well your chariot has a front-row seat so you should be able to see what's going on :P. But I wouldn't say slowing down, just a waiting turn. Fireworks should resume shortly
anyway, headed out to lunch now, so I need to step away
thanks for the chat

YossarianLives
Take care, and I'll get back to you about the pillaging thing

We'll see. If I were them, I'd tell us tough luck and be done with it (and I mostly expect that to happen), but maybe we'll catch a break here.

[scooter]

I'm not saying we should attack them. But if we tell them they've committed an act of war they'd likely back off and stop the pillaging, which is the desired course of action. If they don't stop pillaging, well, what's our plan B anyway? To let them keep doing it? That's the insanity.

Again, they can respond by saying we've committed an act of war by trading ivory to their enemy. They even asked us to stop and we said no.

So yes, in theory they could keep doing it, and there's nothing we could do about it. It sucks, but that's civ. Sure we could threaten them, but they're not stupid, they'd know it's an empty threat. All that accomplishes is pissing them off, which makes the situation worse.

Apolyton backed off because
1) We had done nothing to provoke them, so they look like the scummy ones in that exchange
2) They have no military, we have the biggest in the world
3) Soon we will have the largest army in the world right next to their cities, so they have reason to fear it

None of those apply to CFC, and CFC is very much aware of that.

[Mardoc]

If they don't stop pillaging, well, what's our plan B anyway? To let them keep doing it? That's the insanity.

town-> nothing is 140 or 150 commerce over 70 turns, plus the worker turns depending on riverside

And that takes four chariot turns to accomplish. One chariot, under perfect conditions, costs us about 35 future commerce/turn.

They have to be right where we're exposing towns, in that brief window between conquest and cultural regrowth, despite not knowing our war plans or culture plans. Realistically there'll be inefficiency, so they don't manage to do that even that much damage.

They're obviously not prepared for a really extensive pillaging campaign, or they would have a lot of mounted units in the area, not just one chariot. They don't have much ability to change plans and do that, either; we're 1-2 turns from claiming the German core, at which point the clock is ticking. And they need to finish off the Spanish ASAP, or the elephants will get too painful. They've got at most, what, 20 turns of pillaging?

So...anything that costs us more than ~30 commerce/turn or 600 total isn't worth doing.

About the chat: I think 'we disagree with what CivFr told you' and 'we won't say anything else' adds up to 'we haven't decided what lie we're going to use yet'. But also, yes, it appears we don't have leverage anymore, unless we're willing to give up more. I'd be ok with offering tribute in the range of 10 gpt for CFC to stop pillaging, but I suspect Xenu et al would want my head for that .

[Ceiliazul]

The best way to avoid a rebuttal about Ivory, and also avoid sabre rattling about NAP breaking. 3rd (and last) time I'll post this:

CFC,

You are pillaging tiles in range of our conquered cities. We understand a war is inevitable, and we understand trying to arrange a dogpile. Those are honorable means to catch the leader. However pillaging neutral lands near our new cities needs to stop.

If a dogpile happens, it is our best interest to attack one side fiercely to get them out of the fight. Continuing to pillage our lands would be a great way to help us decide which side that is.

[kjn]

I was curious about our refusal of assistance to them in the first Spanish war, and that was back on T109. They asked for 300g (equivalent to our full gold surplus for 2 turns), which they would start to pay back after ten turns.

I think Scooter refused that proposal quite graciously, and also by keeping open the door for other assistance that wouldn't require as much investment, despite how abysmally bad their proposal would be for us.

[scooter]

The best way to avoid a rebuttal about Ivory, and also avoid sabre rattling about NAP breaking. 3rd (and last) time I'll post this:

CFC,

You are pillaging tiles in range of our conquered cities. We understand a war is inevitable, and we understand trying to arrange a dogpile. Those are honorable means to catch the leader. However pillaging neutral lands near our new cities needs to stop.

If a dogpile happens, it is our best interest to attack one side fiercely to get them out of the fight. Continuing to pillage our lands would be a great way to help us decide which side that is.

I saw you post this, but I disagree with a few things

1) I'm assuming your "war is inevitable" is referring to T175, and I disagree with that assessment.
2) I try to avoid threats. I don't think your second paragraph is over the top at all, but I'd prefer to communicate it differently
3) The main thing: I don't think that avoids the ivory thing at all. Or rather, I don't think avoiding it is possible, they were going to bring it up no matter what we said (and Yossarian did immediately as expected).

That said, I did mostly follow the spirit of that post in my chat with Yossarian. Either way, informing them of the pillaging issue is done. Who knows how they'll respond, but we have nothing to stand on here so we just need to hope for the best.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I'd be ok with offering tribute in the range of 10 gpt for CFC to stop pillaging, but I suspect Xenu et al would want my head for that .

"No, no, not a sixpence, sir!"

Or, attributed to him,

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

[kjn]

BTW, I'd have loved to send selected portions of Scooter's chat with Yossarian to Civfr. Quite sad that they decided to keep mum about their assistance to the Germans (yes, I'd be willing to forgive them sending ivory to the Germans, as long as they cancelled the trade at the first legal opportunity and were willing to join a long-term alliance with us against CFC).