WW25 - Game Thread

[novice]

Now about the accusations against me. I think my general play has become more passive over time. My MO now is more about gathering information and leaving my vote on the best current candidate. I don't really do huge attack posts, I prefer catching people in a lie or inconsistency.

I've always attracted suspicion for my style, regardless of alignment. As a villager I usually save myself from the noose by hanging wolves or through meta. Well, the meta can't confirm me this time, but I've at least sniffed out a liar. And now that I'm pursuing him I'm catching heat for not making cases.

[BRickAstley]

So here's an anlysis of novice's posts of importance. Keep in mind this is only about half, the rest are posts that do not add anything to hunting wolves, whether they are just joking posts of unnecessary questions or what have you. I acknowledge that I might have missed one or two, if so please call them out and I'll respond to those as well.

Anyway, MJW because I find his reason for voting Brick very contrived. Makes it feel that either he's trying too hard to have a justification for the vote, or he has inside info on the sanity mechanics which is more likely to come from a wolf as they have multiple team members sharing info.

How does this fit with Brick's claim then?

Uberfish because he believes Brick's sanity based claim but concludes that MJW is the wolf. Just seems incongruent.

One of his first votes, after a vote on slow for 'dont vote people at start cause you always do'. The actual vote was earlier, but he gives a reason here that could be understandable for an early vote, but isn't very strong. It's not out of the realms of possibility that MJW had knowledge that pertained to sanity that could have been wolf-influenced.

And later indicated that he can post once sanity level wents up or down (here)

Ok not all those images loaded the first time... I see where that interpretation comes from now. Hmm.

unvote for now

Zak is right that I've missed this post. That post explains the incongruity in this post:

Anyone else having trouble with the forum lagging?

Anyway, MJW because I find his reason for voting Brick very contrived. Makes it feel that either he's trying too hard to have a justification for the vote, or he has inside info on the sanity mechanics which is more likely to come from a wolf as they have multiple team members sharing info.

Zak, to clarify, are you voting for SC because you agree with Q?

...that is, assuming the first post I quoted isn't clever backpedaling. I'm not sure how Uberfish could miss the sanity aspect of BRick's roleclaim, it was discussed in quite a lot of posts (that didn't use images):

[posts]

This is valid, it was discussed a lot, and I would think that uber would have seen that. This is a good point in novice's favor.

I think wolves are likely to be much more careful about their postings than MJW is.

I think Day 1 has played out enough times with vocal people being hanged for perceived slip ups, wolf or town, that wolves are likely to lay low. So I'm wary of players who haven't posted much yet.

quote is from early in day one. he says that, then he spends entire day targeting loudest strangest player.
i dont see any reason for villager to say thats their philosophy then do opposite thing.

This is a good point. I think Gazglum justified his vote for you quite well earlier though:

I also agree that you've been posting in a weird way all game. But Lewwyn is right, it's not so much that you CHANGED your style, it's that you double downed on it. You went from a bit weird to 'look at me i'm drawing attention to how weird my posts are'. I admit that I don't quite know why a wolf would post like you were to start with, but it's the shift in emphasis that I can read as Wolfy.

But for me, its simpler than that, I don't like your votes. You talk about 'playing for the team', and it doesn't mastter if you go down as long as you reveal a wolf, etc., but by your own admission you're just self-preservation voting the people in the lead. You're not even questioning them or challenging them to give them something to defend against. That's not good teamwork.

Have you responded to this, Jowy? (Honest question)

Switching up your style is definitely helpful for you if you draw scum in any future games, but how is it helpful for village in this game? And why would you need to "switch up" your style in your first game? Shouldn't your first game be your baseline?

Good questions, asking about what Jowy's justification would be for his posting style. Seems to be kinda heavy on the just asking questions side, but surely he'll start using those to build into a case soon, right?

Ichabod, why did you make that bold push for MJW on day one anyway, stating you were very sure of his guilt? Was it just for the "wolf would never do that" points?

Gazglum, help us out - is this your first game as scum?

Um... Well here a day later we have more questions, that are in a different direction than he was in before, and don't really seem to be actual questions more than thinly veiled accusations.

Why were you tracking/watching Azza, Matt?
Why would scum night kill Azza?

I think this post really stood out/was disappointing to me. This was one of my key thoughts going in to day 2 as well, the azza kill was in reason mysterious enough. The problem was that novice never seems to really follow this up with any sort of theory or push for explanation. At this point, it seems relatively certain in my mind that novice is content to sit and ask questions without building any larger consistent theories.

I agree that Lewwyn and Mattimeo earn town tells.

Zak, what's the case on Slowcheetah?

Ichabod, why did you herd everybody onto MJW?

Yay questions!

If Azza was trying to protect Slowcheetah, why did he kill Rowain and not Zak?

This is a pretty good question, the problem is it seems to assume a lot. I'm not sure where the condition of Azza being the one killing Rowain comes into play? Also keep in mind, novice was one of the early ones on slowcheetah in day 2, even though this question seems to indicate an anti-slowcheetah lynch stance.

Novice, your assuming the ghouls killed Rowain? That means that either wolves didn't kill, or Lewwyn is a wolf, because Azza was the only other person to die. I think that the wolves killed Rowain, and ghouls didn't kill.

I was commenting on Zak's theory that Azza and Slowcheetah were scum buddies, but I forgot that Azza's name wasn't revealed in red.

In that case, why are we assuming Azza even has a scum buddy? In fact, didn't Zak ask this exact question earlier?

Well, as ghouls they still could have been teammates, though raising the question of "where did the wolves kill" is a valid one. And more questions.

I were scum you can rest assured I would have steered well clear of that hornet's nest, and stayed quiet about the whole neighbor thread.

Anyway, the thing about Azza's post in defense of Slowcheetah is this. Why did he only post it in the neighbor thread? If he just wanted to be active, collect towncred, or whatnot, why not post publicly? He knew that Rowain and I were liable to vote as a block and so he made a targeted effort to get us off Slowcheetah. But he didn't want to be seen to defend him in public. That's pretty telling.

Besides, why would he defend anyone so strongly, if there are multiple scum factions? If Slowcheetah isn't in league with Azza, Azza would have to consider that I might be right about Slowcheetah, and Slowcheetah could be a wolf. Hence, he would be taking a big risk to defend him so strongly like that. Take into account the fact that Azza must have had a genuine desire to catch wolves, and there's no reason why he wouldn't go along with my wish to vote as a block for Slowcheetah.

Well, I think these are good points by Zak.
Slowcheetah

Well, I do have to say that other people submitting reasonable arguments and following their vote is understandable. The problem is that this is what novice's standard reaction throughout the entire game seems to be, following people onto cases without building them up himself.

Lewwyn why did you claim that he'd played Mafia before?

Lewwyn, did you ever answer this question?

More questions, at this point kind of aside the main play.

This is the meat of Uberfish's case on Gazglum, as far as I can tell:

Speaking of gazglum he definitely feels off his regular game, he usually doesn't hesitate to give a clear opinion on people instead of posting stuff like this:

I wouldbn't be at all surprised if there was wolf involvement in that last minute MJW push, but I do sympathise with the people involved. Deadline hopping is pretty fast-paced stuff, and I know its easy to get caught up in the moment. While I can see why people are suspicious of Pindicator, I can also buy his behaviour as a villager excited at having gone from 'probably going to die' to 'hey, maybe we're about to catch a wolf'.

People on the MJW train the first time through the station don't have teh adrenaline rush defence, so I'm more suspicious of them than the final voters. Skim reading back, that's Uberfish, Mattimeo, Jowy, Ichabod and Pindicator, maybe a couple of others I missed.

There's a lot of hedging there, and the interesting thing about what he mentions concerning MJW voters is that he'd already called everyone voting for MJW potential wolves in the early part of day 1. I think if he's a first time (? not sure) wolf he might be finding it hard to make up reads. Thus the hedging (and spotlighting MJW voters is a pretty convenient method for getting "reads" if you're a wolf and already know MJW is village.)

FYI this is from the other gazglum post that red flagged on reread (200).

After last game, I have a healthy respect for Ichabod’s gut feelings, but I’m not sold on MJW scumminess. Especially because so many other possible wolves voted on him. I can see Uberfish, Mattimeo, Jowy or Pindicator as wolves, and they all voted MJW. That makes me feel like he’s being set up for a fall.

Note that he's already said he thinks MJW is innocent because he's drawing attention to himself and a wolf wouldn't do that. so it's kind of strange that he expresses respect for Ichabod's gut feelings here, he's essentially saying "I'm happy for Ichabod to disagree with me and continue voting MJW." Then we have this statement that a bunch of "potential wolves" are voting MJW. Well, he's voting me at this point purely for having voted MJW in the first place, and hasn't said anything about the others. I find this reasoning pretty circular.

On Pindicator: First, if he really has played games with a MNG and a MJW, then I do not blame him at all for getting them confused. Second, I thought Slow’s case against him was interesting, but Pindicator’s response felt genuine to me. And if we’re analysing people’s posts from Day 1, I thought Brick’s summation of Novice was more convincing than Slow’s of PIndicators.

More hedging. And this doesn't sound like Pindicator is really a suspect as the "potential wolf" stuff above would imply.

Uberfish never responded to my vote on him, which reminds me of his last scum game. But he’s been contributing since then, certainly more than Novice. SO I guess I could swing to Novice as part of my silent superwolf paranoia, but I think there is definitely enough evidence amassing elsewhere now.

And more hedging.

1) gazglum

I think youcould be scum Uber - I didn't like your hostile responses to Pindicator during the night. Jowy I still think very much could be scum - he's making some very coherent points about people today, (again, a shift in style from his noncommunicative votes yesterday), which make him seem very switched on, but yesterday he was playing the noob card.

I also dont like that ýou and Jowy have both come out at the start of Day 2, after a controversial end to Day 1, by both launching fresh attacks on m, when you hadn't pushed at me at all before, even though I had voted both of you.

- doesn't like my hostile reaction to Pind last night. How is that a tell of any sort? I could be annoyed at Pind regardless of my alignment.

- why would I attack gaz now instead of yesterday? Because he made a suspicious post that made me go back and reread his earlier posts. The d1 vote on me didn't bother me at the time, since it didn't seem out of line as a d1 vote - you don't need much of a case to vote people during early day 1.

- As for jowy, everyone told him to start providing actual reasoning and he did (while still posting in the same sentence structure), why would that be suspicious?

Then he starts Day 2 with a fresh line of attack on me, so he can now say I'm counterattacking.

- this doesn't make sense either. Why would I need to say that gazglum was counterattacking? I don't consider that a scum tell. This reads more like gazglum himself is worried that if he counterattacks me people might call that as a scum tell on him, therefore he has to excuse his own behaviour.

* Circular reasoning
* Respects Ichabod's scum read of MJW over his own town read
* Counterattacking, wolf mindset leaking through?
* Hedging

I don't find it all that compelling, really. I'm not sure Gazglum is cool enough to post with the poise that he does as scum. He's had a few good analyses too. And I'm not sure he's been doing any more hedging than the rest of us, it's not like we have any red hot leads.

As usual, I don't find Zakalwe very scummy. Publishing the QT was definitely asking for trouble if he's scum.

Ichabod is hard to pin down, and I still think his trolling could be a deliberate attempt to be classified as town, so I'm willing to lynch him. Same with his MJW wagon, that could be for the "Wolf would never do that" points. (Although town Ichabod just wanting to drive the wagon for once is plausible too).

Like Zakalwe said, Slowcheetah seems like a decent lynch for lack of better candidates. If we're starting a new wagon I think Jowy and Brick are my favourites.

Fake edit: Mattimeo, I forgot about the tiebreaker thing. It wasn't me.

Yay, an analysis post! I agree, uber's case on Gazglum seems to be weak, based mainly on tenets that I wouldn't consider damning. And it is a bit short on actual analysis of Gazglum on anything other than what uber said, but that's not so horrible.

What follows is though. It's good to make your feelings known on what you think of people, but when that's very short statements on multiple with little more than "yeah I think we could start a new [lynch] wagon on them" with the only implied reasoning being "eh, they seem to have a higher chance to be scummy" then that reeks of wolf. At the best this sounds like an apathetic villager not really that concerned with making sure that they find scum.

Yes I answered directly after he asked... What's the point to this novice?

Yes I see it now. I was reviewing Uberfish's posts only when I asked.
The point of course is to look for out of thread information.

In principle I agree with Uberfish that Zak should have revealed the QT immediately. Zak does like fancy play though so I don't think it's out of character to try to trap a little. (And I might have done the same thing myself.)

Look for out of thread explanation? Did you ever explain what you meant by this?

So, you agree that it's no big deal for zak would have been to reveal it immediately, but fancy play withholding it to try and trap people is okay? But my play where it would have been better to drop the fake pr immediately or at least earlier but i dicided to withhold that to try and trap people is what condemns me to the block? This is just too funny.

I found this sequence of posts from the day 2 quicktopic a bit... odd.

57
BRickAstley
Yeah that's an "I am pointing this out, it needs to be answered"

Trust mew if I had any problems with you you would know. You feel strongly in the village camp for me.

58
pindicator
Cool, you are for me too.
Before the night is up i think we should debate who i chat with tonight

59
BRickAstley
Yeah... Any ideas?

60
pindicator
Well, i was thinking...

REDACTED

61
pindicator
Lewwyn's response really makes me think village. Look at him describe his targeting of Azza: because he thinks he's village? He's not a common vig, he's something else, to have targeted Azza because he thought the guy was village...

62
BRickAstley
What? Why are you still talking about him? We already covered all the Lewwyn bases, and now it just sounds to me like you're desperate to get me off voting him. Maybe you're in league together...

63
pindicator
He got me wondering if I had misread my role PM.

I'm thinking about voting for slowcheetah. His day one vote on Azza doesn't sit well with me, and then seeing Azza defend him in the QT makes me wonder. It's more often than not when a villager is targeted by someone they think that the person suspecting them is a wolf. But Azza defends SC when SC's attack was very weak. I think if Zak passes muster on my morning read then I'll likely vote SC.

64
BRickAstley
That sounds forced like you're desperate to move on and I'm not buying it. Of course there's no reason to try and flesh it out today because you're my translator

65
pindicator
Are you referring to me talking with Lewwyn or Uberfish? I don't mind answering questions about my ability

Regardless I just caught up from what happened overnight, and I plan on switching to slowcheetah. It is getting annoying that the people I vote for today end up posting thoughts that mirror my own. So I am willing to give zak a chance. But I see people are voting zak as well as slowcheetah, so I want to see if that continues before I vote SC.

If you have any last posts please get them up an hour before deadline. It's kind of spotty to translate from work.

66
pindicator
I also don't like how slowcheetah has disappeared today

67
BRickAstley
Uber fish? I'm talking about how you seem to have a Lewwyn association and now that I mentioned it you're shrugging it off like its no big deal. Like you just don't want me to think about that possibility and focus on other targets while I stay picture bound where you can kill me before I get the ability to talk again.

68
pindicator
I don't get where you see a Lewwyn association. I'm thinking the opposite. I'm worried that the guy who classically mislynches me in LYLO has an ability that will apparently kill me because i'm a lost soul and it kills undead things. I'd put the odds of me dying to Lewwyn's ability at over 50%. Because if both of us live long enough he's going to think "Eh, maybe Pin is finally duping me" and kill me with it which is what he argues every time he mislynches me. So if you see me buddying up to him in game, it's because I'm pretty certain he's going to kill me.

69
BRickAstley
The Lewwyn association comes where you've stated over and over again in this thread about how he's shown his villagerness or that he must be innocent and so on, I wouldn't think of it if you weren't keeping on trying to assert the same thing over and over again.

70
pindicator
Ok, I see where you're coming from (I re-read a bit). I'm trying to remember what prompted me to write that, and I don't remember. I probably was just posting my thoughts after something in the main thread. Thinking out loud because I'm not in love with any one person as scum.

Mostly I agree with BRick's reactions here that Pindicator's focus on Lewwyn seems odd, and that it could appear that Pindicator's just trying to shake off BRick's question. But I also find it a bit strange how quickly BRick goes from a "strong town read" on Pindicator to cross-interrogation mode.

I guess I'd just like to hear other people's take on this.

This is a good start to building a case, I can agree with your reasoning here, I did make what looks like an awfully sudden jump in reasoning and attitude. Kudos to you for pointing it out, this is a more villager feeling post.

BRick

And of course, lynch all liars. Not horrid but understandable.

I've been skeptical of BRick's claim all along, but was willing to give him tonight to let his alleged secondary ability do its magic. I thought maybe his initial, unjustified vote for Q today was due to a night action result, but apparently not.

His actual claim today disappointed to say the least. He's been confusing and misleading the village for two days, generating suspicion on other players that may be entirely unjustified. I'm happy to lynch him and blame him if he flips villager. I'd rather do that than lynch any "drones".

I think Uberfish and Zak may well both be village, since I can agree with the reasoning from both sides. I don't really have any suspects that feel more likely to be scum than not apart from BRick.

And this is where it falls apart. This is where I would expect village novice to step in and save the day, nail wolf-brick to the wall, and start getting the village on the right track. Instead? "unjustified vote for Q" that I had explained, "confusing" when I tried my best to be clear and clarified EVERYTHING i had posted in pictures and urged people to hunt rather than focus on me, "generating suspicion on other players that may be entirely unjustified" when I've been making cases based on how players have played and reacted to their play as time went on, and "I'm happy to lynch him and blame him if he flips villager."

You know, I am sorry if I offended a sensibility that you (and zak too) had that all village players must be honorable and never lie about anything ever, but this is a game of investigating people and trying to seek out those people that have it out for the rest of us. At this point, you're content to play in a way to take me out just for the sake of being misleading, regardless if I'm on the bad team or not because that's, from my guess, in your mind "not the right way to play", even at the cost of making you lose the game. If I'm hitting you personally I apologize, but in the in-game theater this is is nothing less than a horrible position to take up.

Damn straight I'm happy to vote BRick. He's been lying through his teeth, for christ's sake. As for not making a case, it was my questioning that caused him to admit to his lies.

OK so maybe I'm playing a bit lazily but honestly my lazy play is a lot better than "village plays" like BRick's (or Jowy's, for that matter).

It was your questioning that got me to tell everybody what was going no, but asking questions does not build a case. Currently, your case doesn't seem to consist of much more than "You are a liar, and tried to fool the village into wasting time with your lies. Therefore, you are a wolf." Am I wrong? and honestly, especially with some of the recent discussion, I feel like Jowy has been making more good points to help out the village than you have.

Has he really. I don't see it. I see a lot of noise generated over an invented post restriction, which he then spent a lot of effort trying to work with. Great way to contribute.

This has already been covered, and I don't know what else I could say about it. I've had contributions to the hunt, and others have acknowledged them, but you seem to still wanna claim those as not counting.

[novice]

novice, zak, who else u think are wolves other than brick?

Well it depends of course on how BRick flips. Just going by aggregated impressions, I guess my lynch preference goes something like this:
BRickAstley
Qgqqqqq
Jowy
(gap)
Gazglum
Jkaen
pindicator
uberfish
zakalwe
(gap)
Mattimeo
Lewwyn

We should probably reexamine Mattimeo, I've mostly just counted him as village after his tracker/watcher claim.

JKaen, analyzing posts 1-300 speaks of good effort, but frankly I think it would be more useful if you skimmed them and commented on current affairs.

[BRickAstley]

Protip: Don't wait until day 3 when we really can't afford a mislynch.

Well, I knew that I had to reveal at the right time in order for it to be effective once I had started it, so I wouldn't draw the village into a stupid mislynch.

The point is that your lies affect our reasoning about other players. For example, I stated that Pindicator's ability is a natural antidote to your post restriction. Now, since your PR is a lie that makes me wonder if two claimed neighbour abilities isn't a bit much. Also, if people find your lies convincing, they will question players who don't. Just because you're not counteraccusing doesn't mean that nobody else will.

So, are you doubting that these abilities are true now? I have no doubts that my convos with pinidcator are true, and you mustnt either now that you're in one. If you want, then yes, we can bring up if we think zak was lying about their being a gossip thread. I just don't think that's needed.

And if so that's a problem, HEY EVERYBODY, DONT JUST ATTACK PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DIDNT AGREE WITH MY PR, ONLY ATTACK PEOPLE IF THEYRE ACTING LIKE A WOLF. Besides, it's not like people would need an excuse to try and weasel their way into players trying to build up bad questioning.

FWIW I couldn't make heads or tails out of your picture posts on day 1 when I was skim-playing from my phone.

Well, that's understandable. But alot of those were ones I retracted and said sorry for. and people offered translations later. and i said specifically what they meant through the quicktopic. That was 5 days ago IRL, there should have been plenty of time to understand them since then.

I don't get it. The point can be made but I'm scummy for making it?

The point can be made, but it's your only point. That coupled with your general sluggishness and lack of wolf hunting makes you scummy.

Yes, and this wasn't one of them.

I think the fact that we have been upholding a Lynch All Liars policy speaks in favour of continuing it.

Well, there's really no response to this but agree to disagree, because I think it was, boosted even more by the fact that I think you're a wolf this helped to find that is now trying to wriggle out of suspicion.

[BRickAstley]

Now about the accusations against me. I think my general play has become more passive over time. My MO now is more about gathering information and leaving my vote on the best current candidate. I don't really do huge attack posts, I prefer catching people in a lie or inconsistency.

I've always attracted suspicion for my style, regardless of alignment. As a villager I usually save myself from the noose by hanging wolves or through meta. Well, the meta can't confirm me this time, but I've at least sniffed out a liar. And now that I'm pursuing him I'm catching heat for not making cases.

Well, even villagers trying their hardest to hunt wolves can sometimes be inconsistent, so I just don't think sticking to that without an attempt to actively convince other people seems like what you would do, or a good play.

And yes, you can say you've sniffed out a liar, but one that was going to come clean about what was going on very shortly, and already almost did twice. Though I know, I lied, i can't be believed in that, but i can honestly all i can say you made me confess to was explaining more about my role to try and make more sense of my play.

[BRickAstley]

Hey Mattimeo, you're known to everyone as a tracker or watcher or whatever, there shouldn't be any negative reason to revealing what you saw last night, but I don't think I've seen anything from you about results. Care to maybe give some insight why?

And Lewwyn, are you at liberty to discuss what if anything you did last night? Did you go after Ichabod?

[BRickAstley]

As for not making a case, it was my questioning that caused him to admit to his lies.

I agree that Novice's questioning of Brick should count as a case. Don't you agree, Pindicator?

Zak, what's your take on my case against novice?

I don't see it. Though I haven't done that reread yet.

Can you rrcall him making a real case against anybody before Brick's confession?

I don't think anyone could not count novice making a case on me now, and pindicator even alluded to it being a case before you asked him about it, jsyk.

[pindicator]

As for not making a case, it was my questioning that caused him to admit to his lies.

I agree that Novice's questioning of Brick should count as a case. Don't you agree, Pindicator?

I'm arguing about his activity pre-reveal.
Before Brick revealed novice would ask questions and make hedging statements about the potential guilt of people. He never followed those up or gave any indication of the reasoning behind who he suspected. That is so unlike village novice to sit back and not build cases!

And Brick revealing his unwise choice to fake a PR is about as low-hanging fruit you can go for. This is the kind of MO i would expect wolf novice to go for: ask questions, drift between targets, and then pounce once someone does something stupid.

Fake edit: excellent question, Jowy

[BRickAstley]

Unofficial vote count since i don't think we've had one.

novice (4.1) - BRick, Qgqqqqq, Lewwyn, Pindicator
BRick (2) - novice, mattimeo
uberfish (1) - gazglum
zakalwe (1) - uberfish
Jowy (1) - jkaen
Gazglum (1) - zakalwe

[pindicator]

Ok, i crossed more posts then i thought. But Brick's analysis of novice's posts is exactly what i'm talking about!

Come on people, let's get the wolf!