WW25 - Game Thread

[uberfish]

Ok, even though I still suspect zak and novice, regardless of their alignment they made a good point that Brick has pot large amounts of effort into the game when he is scum in the past, and I shouldn't read too strong of a town tell into it.

Therefore I want a full claim from brick. For the main reason that I have serious meta doubts about his claimed role that are related to my own role. I will explain why after Brick claims.

[uberfish]

(and sorry this is late in the day btw. I didn't want to give people an easy excuse to spend the day arguing about meta instead of scumhunting / failing to scumhunt as the case may be.)

[Gazglum]

Therefore I want a full claim from brick. For the main reason that I have serious meta doubts about his claimed role that are related to my own role. I will explain why after Brick claims.

I'm not going to be around for that, I'm afraid. If you had evidence of Brick in another lie, then I'd switch to him, since my (relative) faith in him now is largely built on the feeling that he really had come clean about everything. But as is, I like the case on Novice better.

[zakalwe]

I'm flying to Oslo in a couple of hours to visit Novice. So that may be a bit awkward if we're both still alive tomorrow.

In any case, my vote stays on Brick for the reasons I have stated. He could be scum, and as long as that is the case, he's an obvious policy lynch.

[novice]

Okay, unfortunately I didn't have time for any more proactive defense today, and now I have to go vacuum hairs from my den.

I'll just reiterate that there's no defense for doing what BRick did - he lied to the village, and didn't interrupt when the village took wrong turns and wasted time based on his lies. Yes, he made tremendous effort overcoming his FAKED post restriction, but surely that was the whole point of his gambit, getting village cred for his "hard work". He was happy to see MJW hang without clarifying what he knew about the sanity mechanism. He was happy to let Pindicator spend his ability neighbourising with BRick. He didn't chime in with his info when we speculated that Pindicator's role was meant to balance out BRick's PR. He HASN'T done a lot of scumhunting, he's just been working to overcome his PR. And he stil HASN'T COME CLEAN! He has NOT revealed how his "real" role supposedly fits with Lewwyn's role. Lewwyn has intimated that he might have a counterpart to his role, and hey presto! Suddenly that's BRick's real role.

Don't you find it odd that in a village near LyLo BRick DOESN'T get bandwagonned for lying to the village? I mean, if scum were looking for an easy lynch they don't come more easily than this. So that the majority of votes are collecting on me really ought to ring a bell for you people.

I'll try to keep an eye on the thread until deadline.

[Mattimeo]

Don't you find it odd that in a village near LyLo BRick DOESN'T get bandwagonned for lying to the village? I mean, if scum were looking for an easy lynch they don't come more easily than this. So that the majority of votes are collecting on me really ought to ring a bell for you people.

novice (7)- Qgqqqq, Lewwyn, pindicator, BRickAstley, Gazglum, Jkaen, Jowy
BRickAstley (4) - novice, Mattimeo, zakalwe, uberfish

At this stage, in order for novice to be a wolf, either all the wolves in the game are currently in the group voting BRick, or he's being bussed with what seems like very little reason for doing so. Neither of these scenarios make much sense to me.

i will

When?

[pindicator]

i will

When?

If there's one person who's managed to play both the noob card and the arrogant card at the same time this game, it's Jowy

[pindicator]

Brick, if you trusted I was village, why didn't you come clean in the QT thread yesterday? Why make me write all that text (and right before deadline too)?

When did you first start planning your first posts for this game? Not the theme, but actually digging up images

[BRickAstley]

Working through posts from during the night a page at a time, it might take a bit to get them all.

Brick, why did you call Jowy a wolf for this? Don't you think he could be doing something similar to what you've been doing?

I just wasn't understanding his rationale of having to be "unpredictable" and "different", especially since it was his first game. I didn't think it a very hard wolf tell, as you can see by me not voting him and viewing some of his later posts as contributing to a village stance.

Yeah, I can now see where it has some similarities to what i've done.

You know, I am sorry if I offended a sensibility that you (and zak too) had that all village players must be honorable and never lie about anything ever, but this is a game of investigating people and trying to seek out those people that have it out for the rest of us. At this point, you're content to play in a way to take me out just for the sake of being misleading, regardless if I'm on the bad team or not because that's, from my guess, in your mind "not the right way to play", even at the cost of making you lose the game. If I'm hitting you personally I apologize, but in the in-game theater this is is nothing less than a horrible position to take up.

To explain where I'm coming from on Brick... I agree 100% with this. That Brick quote actually made me angry the first time I read it. If he is a villager, his arrogance is staggering. (And that says something, coming from me...) I don't care what kind of "viggy" role you have, Brick. You must vastly overestimate its importance if you think is justifies playing like you did.

Just to clarify; this isn't personal, and I'm not taking it personally. But we do in fact disagree strongly about how the game should be played, and the correct way for me to show that in-game is to give you my vote.

Yeah, I want to apologize for my outburst there, it wasn't fair to you especially with what I've done this game. Like I've said before, I know what I did was not pro-village, and I'm sorry for it. The reason I did so was before the game I figured it would be neat, and that it would add a little twist to make the game more fun. Once I got into the game I realized how screwing up everyone it would be, but at that point I couldn't just drop it or hey nice fun mislynch. So I tried to do the best I could with it and wait for a good chance to stop using it in a way that would help out the village.

The anger from that previous paragraph is mainly concentrated in the fact that I was being attacked for that reason alone regardless of contributions. Not voting for me doesn't equate to an approval of my play, many people that aren't have said it's a stupid idea and I agree and won't be doing it again. But It seems like the crux of your reasoning to vote for my lynch has been the idea that "because you did this, regardless of other evidence, you need to be lynched on principle", while I don't see it as necessary to lynch me in order to prevent this sort of play from happening again. I would be much happier if you would have acknowledged you had a narrow focus and looked at my other play, which by the time I'm writing this message you've been doing so great! It might be misguided, since I know I'm innocent, but at least it's more than just a flat-out policy lynch.

Actually, after going in circles several times about who is scum, I'm not sure it's so unlikely that Brick is scum, either. I think some of the reason people are getting town vibes from him currently is that he's just being very verbose. But we've seen him as a verbose wolf before. Not just in the infamous drone riots game; even though he was clamming up for parts of day 1 in the previous game, he also made a huge case against Azza later in that game. So he has no problem churning out big posts like his case against Novice.

Heh, it's funny cause wolf-zak does the same thing and there's only one person ahead of me in post count. I will agree that verbose wolf is something that's been done before and I've been guilty of, but don't just look at word count look at content. I'm talking alot because in the research and reviewing I've done of the game to this point I feel very confident that I've caught a wolf, and especially with my own precarious position, I want to do everything I can to show other people why I've come to that conclusion, and hopefully have them agree with me, so that we CAN catch a wolf.

Like I said earlier, any town tells derived from him "overcoming" his post restriction should be considered invalid. If he is scum, he has been trying very actively to deceive all of us, and that deception obviously includes trying to make the best of the situation. It's not like he'd pretend to be post restricted and uninterested in trying to overcome it. He started the game by expressing anger at his restriction, setting himself up for an automatic boost in towncred just by plugging on.

Yeah that's fine, I agree, don't attribute village-ness to me for "overcoming" my PR, look at my other content and judge based on that. That would be a silly reason to justify me alone at this point. However as a villager at first thinking it would be fun to play this out and then later realizing the consequences of his actions and doing his best to make it work even with them, yes of course I'm going to be eager to overcome it and contribute as best as possible.

Instead, what we should look at are his actual contributions, which are poor, since he deliberately adopted a style that makes it impossible to make deep contributions. His "best" case on day 1, which he apparently takes pride in, was a breakdown of Ichabod's posts into various categories. It's not a compelling case, and it was targeting a villager. That only counts as a decent contribution IF you assume that he had no way to communicate better. When he got access to the QT on day 2, he could have contributed as well as anyone else, but I don't think he excelled. Besides clearing up his previous posts, he made one long writeup to explain his vote for Slowcheetah, and that was really it. The rest of it was the rambling in the QT that he was being questioned about when he broke down and confessed.

Well my case on Ichabod was someone that was spending time joking and talking about my PR after I had made it clear that that was a waste of time and for people to stop doing so. It was made stronger when his response to that was to make a joke at my expense and completely ingnore the rest of it, it sounded like an overconfident wolf that didn't see much harm in me. And the fact that he turned up a villager is irrelevant and you know it! It's day one, alot of the votes are based on shaky ground due to the small amount of posts to go on, and no one has been killed yet so we have absolutely no one's confirmed allegiance to go on. And even throughout the game, villagers make cases on other villagers that turn out to be wrong, because everyone is suspicious and statements can be misinterpreted and a ton of other reasons. Don't start with that "it was a villager" crap, if so we should lynch you because you LED a lynch on a villager day 2 so you're more guilty nahnahnahnahbooboo

Well, I cleared up my previous posts, I investigated into why the two people that died did die, I tried to lead on Lewwyn and Pindicator with questions to see if they would drop guilty hints that I could indict them on, and at the end of the day, when that didn't pan out, the vote looked pretty set on either slowcheetah or zakalwe so I reviewed those cases and made my best judgement call on who was up there. It wasn't a stellar day I would agree, but it was full for me of honest scumhunting and trying to puzzle things out. And you left out the part where I explained what happened in the QT while day 2 was still active if you don't remember, I told everyone then that I had been suspecting and trying to sniff out more wolfishness from Lewwyn and Pindicator, so don't act like I made that up today.

I think the biggest town tell for Brick right now is his unrepentant attitude. That part seems more like a misguided villager than scum. But he could just be sensing that people are willing to forgive him and building on that.

Heh. I'm repentant about my having done the PR, but I'm enthusiastic in that I think I have found a wolf and I wanna make him hang for being a wolf. I'm still quite puzzled frankly that the majority has been believing me and have been expecting it to swing the other way and mislynch me ever since I 'revealed' but am very thankful that others have seen the case on novice and haven't been swung that way.

Well, in hindsight we know that he didn't have wolf-influenced knowledge of the sanity mechanic, but we *do* know that the person who initially introduced sanity to the discussion in a major way, and whose claims MJW was basing his entire argument on, was lying about those claims.
And then, this person ends the day with the final vote against MJW?

Quoted for emphasis. BRick was happy to let other players sweat for assumptions related to his own lies.

Why do you think that was why I deemed it acceptable to vote MJW? I voted for him because when I ran the analysis before lynch, his posts were ONLY talking about that sanity deal, he hadn't talked about anything else other than this last post here, which was a very wolfy sounding short synopsis. It wasn't the best but after Jowy picked up his contributions later in the day it was better than sticking on Jowy, and had the benefit of letting us know more about Ichabod.

[BRickAstley]

novice (5.1) - BRick, Qgqqqqq, Lewwyn, Pindicator, Gazglum
BRick (3) - novice, mattimeo, zakalwe
zakalwe (2) - uberfish, jowy
Jowy (1) - jkaen

I'm kind of playing with my back against the wall here, so I apologize for being brief. At this point it seems I'm mostly doing analysis for my post mortem anyway. I did the split like that because I think scum would sit back and see how the wagon on me evolved before committing to it. So BRick with the natural defense vote, accompanied by a late voter and a fencesitter seems like a likely split. (This was before JKaen joined the wagon). After all, scum wouldn't want to risk enthusiastically joining my wagon, only to find that the villagers pulled their heads out of their asses and realized that BRick was the best lynch.

So then why Q? he had joined the arguments against you for similar reasons early on, why are you defining him as a fencesitter?