WW25 - Game Thread

[Lewwyn]

Qg today you've voted: Llewelyn, zak, Jkaen, invite, Jowy. Sure making it around the block.

Why are you voting for Jowy? Because he's ignoring things in meta arguments and making bad points? Hey is this an issue now? He was doing this all game. These are exactly the reasons we said he was a newb villager on day 1. I didn't go through that whole 2 hour long argument with him for nothing. Just because he's starting to write legibly does not mean his arguments, reasoning or logic have changed. He still reads like the same newb villager to me. The fact that you've voted all over the place and now have settled on Jowy, who I think is the easiest villager read is heavily suspicious. Qg

[Lewwyn]

I believe this tally is correct with a little over 16 hours to go.

Qg (1) - Lewwyn
BRickAstley (1) - Matt
Matt (1) - Brick
Uberfish(1) - Jkaen
Jowy(1) - Qg

Not Voting - Uberfish, Jowy

[Lewwyn]

Uber who do you suspect? Jowy are you going to vote Jkaen.

I think that the last wolf is between Jkaen and Qg.

I think Brick's vote and subsequent leaving on Matt is really suspicious. I really don't think scum would have a powerful tracker/watcher combo power role. With two factions how do you balance that? And why would scum reveal on day 2 and make themselves a target for the other scum faction? It just doesn't make sense. Brick's vote on Mattimeo is incredibly scummy... here I go talking myself into lynching Brick. FYI, upon rereading a bit, Novice was sure Brick was a Serial Killer, which I could buy.

That aside, one of the reasons I think one of Jkaen or Q is scum is that they are both similar powers. Governor and Double Vote. Would the village really be given two voting powers? Governor is more transparent and double vote less so. Didn't we peg double voter as scum earlier in the game? What happened to that? Jkaen claimed and everyone said, "ok! You claimed so you must not be scum!" PLEASE. Scum do this every game. They legitimately claim their abilities and pass them off as villager abilities. If you look beyond that, Jkaen has contributed absolutely nothing. He started going through posts to "catch up" on Day but never actually even finished. His votes have been reaction bandwagons of late.

Someone analyze the double votes, I gotta rock a baby

[Qgqqqqq]

Because he's making horrible points, and I'm feeling insecure about pretty well everyone which is why I've been jumping around.
Who's invite BTW?
I suppose the difference is I noticed a specific anomaly, the whole sk thing which I've been relatively agnostic to until jowy says that it is the only possible role. So I started picking, and it all seemed nonsense.
I kinda agree that tracker/watcher is too strong for scum, and it fits as a minor seeresque role.

@Jowy:

Serdoa said not to meta his phrasing because he's not a native English speaker. He said nothing about over-reading the meta.

Can't be blowed checking this. Regardless though, its a basic rule of WW that you don't over meta things, stick to tells.

I've also never said that there must be a SK. I've said that in my opinion the most plausible explanation for Brick's actions is that his role is a serial killer.

Saying that the most likely result of one persons role is they are SK==saying there is a SK.

I've not ignored the "kill problems", I clearly said that the kills will kick in once sanity is low enough, if there is a SK.

And my point is this would be a HORRIBLY unfun role to play. Compare it to a vanilla werewolf - a sk normally loses allies to get extra power. You are proposing a wolf that gets even less powers, and no allies??

I really don't understand how Brick is an easy lynch. In my opinion Zak was the last easy lynch, thus my comment earlier saying "it can't bee this easy, can it?"

Easy=/=good. Brick is an easy lynch as in taking the "easy" route - he is automatically suspicious because he faked a PR, and as evidence of this both novice and gazglum used him as a easy target, one they could easily attack.

Brick being SK does not mean Lewwyn is a wolf. Not sure how you got to that conclusion.

If brick is sk then we have a missing kill, unless you think lewwyn. This was me over-analyzing the issue though, so please ignore.

As I believe you said it yourself earlier, there are too many variables to it. Wolves and ghouls could have doubled up on Rowain, there were more villagers around whose roles we don't know etc. In fact it's kinda weird how you've completely changed your mind on that.

I haven't, I was over interpreting. Sorry

Before you were saying that we can't do a lewwyn/brick mechanics kill, but now you are using that as a point against me.

I just got out of saying how I haven't seen any scum tells from you, then you write a post that completely twists my words and flat out lies in half of it's sentences. Even worse, you want to ignore everything I've done for the team and just kill me off because I was possibly wrong about one person's alignment? Now that is very odd.

Err no. Firstly I don't see a plethora of lies there, but secondly, what exactly have you done for the team???
I looked at that post and what I saw was a scum setting up a pair of mislynches, using a bunch of false assertions on Brick, who I think is a definite village but has a lot of suspicion historically.
Looking back, it looks like I may have over interpreted it, but I still find it a bad post, based on foolish meta.

I'll admit I'm seeing the foolish village angle though...

Serdoa said not to meta his phrasing because he's not a native English speaker. He said nothing about over-reading the meta.
I've also never said that there must be a SK. I've said that in my opinion the most plausible explanation for Brick's actions is that his role is a serial killer.
I've not ignored the "kill problems", I clearly said that the kills will kick in once sanity is low enough, if there is a SK.
I really don't understand how Brick is an easy lynch. In my opinion Zak was the last easy lynch, thus my comment earlier saying "it can't bee this easy, can it?"

Brick being SK does not mean Lewwyn is a wolf. Not sure how you got to that conclusion. As I believe you said it yourself earlier, there are too many variables to it. Wolves and ghouls could have doubled up on Rowain, there were more villagers around whose roles we don't know etc. In fact it's kinda weird how you've completely changed your mind on that. Before you were saying that we can't do a lewwyn/brick mechanics kill, but now you are using that as a point against me.

I just got out of saying how I haven't seen any scum tells from you, then you write a post that completely twists my words and flat out lies in half of it's sentences. Even worse, you want to ignore everything I've done for the team and just kill me off because I was possibly wrong about one person's alignment? Now that is very odd.

[Bigger]

Have no fear, Bigger is here.

I believe this tally is correct with a little over 16 hours to go.

Qg (1) - Lewwyn
BRickAstley (1) - Matt
Matt (1) - Brick
Uberfish(1) - Jkaen
Jowy(1) - Qg

Not Voting - Uberfish, Jowy

Please speak up if Lewwyn has made a mistake with your vote. I'm using this as a base to keep track of future votes, rather than reread the whole day. 14 hours, 15 minutes until lynch deadline.

[Jowy]

A bad post based on foolish meta? Hope you realize that the SK part only really affects one of the six people I had on that list. Now you're trying to discredit all of my arguments. Sounds like someone doesn't like where I'm taking the game, but can't really refute my arguments with logic, so you twist my words, tell lies, and focus on the easiest to attack part while ignoring everything else. And yeah, this sounds cocky, but I sure as hell haven't seen you put any effort to making sense of the situation. All you've done is drop a vote on a clear villager because you didn't like a single point he had in his post he worked 3 hours on. Then you don't even listen to my reply, as proven by the fact that you keep twisting my words despite my reply to you in which I cleared up any confusion you had about my original post. I can't decide whether you are a villager who lost their mind in a hard spot or a wolf who just blew their own cover.

And this really is a hard spot. That's why I hope we get more discussion going today. Btw one thing I actually agree with Q is that we shouldn't focus too much on meta. I included it in Brick's case in my post, because it's what I honestly believe is the most likely explanation for his actions. I think it's better to come out with the truth than rank him high and not give a reasoning for it. Or worse, lie about the reasoning.

Q you must also remember that there are 1-2 scum left. Just because I had you at third and a guy you trust to be a villager at second, doesn't mean that I'm trying to set you up for a fall. For all we know Jkaen could be the last scum alive. Or they could all three be villagers and I'm simply following the wrong trail. At this point of the game, with my experience of zero games, I can say that it is important to stay rational. Don't lynch a guy just because he attacked you or because a single things rubs you wrong. You have to look at the big picture, and most of all you have to try to explain your suspicions to the other villagers. Even if you are right in whoever you happen to target, it won't help the village if you can't explain it to the rest and they end up not voting with you, or worse yet mis-lynching you just because they find it suspicious that you don't have good reasons for your vote.

[Jkaen]

Why is everybody insisting on over complicating a 2 scum team set up already by adding sky's and survivors, it makes far more sense to just have werewolves, which I personally expect to have 2 left not 1 as various other people are pushing.

And what novice claims at any point I would use as evidence of a sk, because firstly he was scum hence lying quite often, and secondly he had less information than we do, so why should've know better?

[Jkaen]

Jowy you realise every time somebody has disagreed with anything you say they are either an idiot or scum, are you really that conceited?

Surely at some point you. Must acknowledge you could actually be wrong on some things

[Jowy]

Jowy you realise every time somebody has disagreed with anything you say they are either an idiot or scum, are you really that conceited?

Surely at some point you. Must acknowledge you could actually be wrong on some things

I don't have a problem with Q disagreeing with me. I have a problem that he wants to lynch me because of that single disagreement.

[Qgqqqqq]

A bad post based on foolish meta? Hope you realize that the SK part only really affects one of the six people I had on that list. Now you're trying to discredit all of my arguments. Sounds like someone doesn't like where I'm taking the game, but can't really refute my arguments with logic, so you twist my words, tell lies, and focus on the easiest to attack part while ignoring everything else. And yeah, this sounds cocky, but I sure as hell haven't seen you put any effort to making sense of the situation. All you've done is drop a vote on a clear villager because you didn't like a single point he had in his post he worked 3 hours on. Then you don't even listen to my reply, as proven by the fact that you keep twisting my words despite my reply to you in which I cleared up any confusion you had about my original post. I can't decide whether you are a villager who lost their mind in a hard spot or a wolf who just blew their own cover.

And this really is a hard spot. That's why I hope we get more discussion going today. Btw one thing I actually agree with Q is that we shouldn't focus too much on meta. I included it in Brick's case in my post, because it's what I honestly believe is the most likely explanation for his actions. I think it's better to come out with the truth than rank him high and not give a reasoning for it. Or worse, lie about the reasoning.

Q you must also remember that there are 1-2 scum left. Just because I had you at third and a guy you trust to be a villager at second, doesn't mean that I'm trying to set you up for a fall. For all we know Jkaen could be the last scum alive. Or they could all three be villagers and I'm simply following the wrong trail. At this point of the game, with my experience of zero games, I can say that it is important to stay rational. Don't lynch a guy just because he attacked you or because a single things rubs you wrong. You have to look at the big picture, and most of all you have to try to explain your suspicions to the other villagers. Even if you are right in whoever you happen to target, it won't help the village if you can't explain it to the rest and they end up not voting with you, or worse yet mis-lynching you just because they find it suspicious that you don't have good reasons for your vote.

Please...could you avoid sounding like a lecturer, its really getting my blood on boil.
I respond clearly to the points you made, making sure I don't miss anything by quoting as I did.
How is that not work??? If you think I'm twisting your words and/or lying, quote portions and explain the problem (like I did...) so that I can actually respond to what you are saying.

A bad post based on foolish meta? Hope you realize that the SK part only really affects one of the six people I had on that list.

In 6 people, I'm focussing on the brick because you a) found him scummy, and b) I had a problem with the reasoning.
Why should I ignore that just because you mention other people? And that was what you were sharing a actual case on so it was the most important part of it. (JKaen bit was also a case but I agree with it and its nothing new so didn't comment).

Now you're trying to discredit all of my arguments. Sounds like someone doesn't like where I'm taking the game, but can't really refute my arguments with logic, so you twist my words, tell lies, and focus on the easiest to attack part while ignoring everything else.

I'm focussing on what is worthy of a attack - say I post 6 things. 1 is a seer reveal on Ichabod for being caught as wolf, while the other are impressions of the day.
Whcih part should I focus on?
And obviously I don't like where you're going - as I said, I don't think its a good case because of the reasons I outlined.
And again, show me where I tell lies and twist arguments! Thats a serious accusation and you're just throwing it in there.

And yeah, this sounds cocky, but I sure as hell haven't seen you put any effort to making sense of the situation. All you've done is drop a vote on a clear villager because you didn't like a single point he had in his post he worked 3 hours on. Then you don't even listen to my reply, as proven by the fact that you keep twisting my words despite my reply to you in which I cleared up any confusion you had about my original post. I can't decide whether you are a villager who lost their mind in a hard spot or a wolf who just blew their own cover.

Clearly I don't see you as a clear villager
I posted my thoughts on your post, explained why it felt scummy and concluded that you were trying to set up mislynches on easy targets.
And I clearly did read your reply, given I went through it piece by piece and responded.
Please stop being arrogant and actually discuss this, rather then shooting everything down without explanation.

And this really is a hard spot. That's why I hope we get more discussion going today. Btw one thing I actually agree with Q is that we shouldn't focus too much on meta. I included it in Brick's case in my post, because it's what I honestly believe is the most likely explanation for his actions. I think it's better to come out with the truth than rank him high and not give a reasoning for it. Or worse, lie about the reasoning.

Thank you for the clear and obvious smear without any backup
Again, you honestly think the most likely explanation is that a player is a SK. If so, why aren't you voting him?
If the best explanation is that someone is scum...then you vote them, don't you?

Q you must also remember that there are 1-2 scum left. Just because I had you at third and a guy you trust to be a villager at second, doesn't mean that I'm trying to set you up for a fall.

Thank you for the clear and obvious smear without any backup
Thats...not why I went for you, and I'm not sure how you got that.

For all we know Jkaen could be the last scum alive. Or they could all three be villagers and I'm simply following the wrong trail. At this point of the game, with my experience of zero games, I can say that it is important to stay rational. Don't lynch a guy just because he attacked you or because a single things rubs you wrong. You have to look at the big picture, and most of all you have to try to explain your suspicions to the other villagers. Even if you are right in whoever you happen to target, it won't help the village if you can't explain it to the rest and they end up not voting with you, or worse yet mis-lynching you just because they find it suspicious that you don't have good reasons for your vote.

This is just...so incredibly arrogant.
I'm NOT VOTING YOU BECAUSE YOU LISTED ME THIRD
I am voting you because I found that post incredibly scummy, in ways I outlined.
Please try to appreciate that I didn't vote to lynch because I disagreed, but because your actions felt scummy.


Nontheless, I think you're reaction screams village, if you are acting like this on purpose I'm going to be very, very pissed.