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(July 16th, 2013, 13:45)Ruff_Hi Wrote: (July 16th, 2013, 13:36)Sullla Wrote: I don't think letting CFC declare war on ... UniverseCiv ... [that would] drive [them] ... straight into an alliance with us, and UniversCiv is strong enough not to be easy pickings. (July 16th, 2013, 13:38)Ruff_Hi Wrote: If we sign this NAP with CFC, then I think we can kiss goodbye to any such relationship with UniversCiv.
Interesting how Sullla and I look at this development differently. I was thinking they would be pissed at us in that we couldn't help them. Sullla is obviously thinking they would be just pissed at CFC.
I'm assuming that we can reach out to other select Civs and let them know that we have signed a NAP extension with CFC. That should put UniverCiv on alert ... shouldn't it?
probably you both would be right
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I also think that if CFC attacks UniversCiv, that will be great for our relations with UniversCiv.
I do think sending them a short message if the deal goes through seems fine. Something to the effect of "we had to sign a NAP with CFC because it looks like Apolyton and CP are coming for us with rifles, so watch your back".
No need to warn WPC similarly. If CFC comes for them, they'll roll over and die regardless, and they don't need to hear any more bad news from us.
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(July 16th, 2013, 13:38)Ruff_Hi Wrote: YossarianLives is CFC, isn't he?
If this NAP out clause is one-way, then who is their likely target?
Yes, he's CFC. Also, it would be UCiv. Obviously they wouldn't get anywhere against CivFr, and we are covered by the NAP. I don't think they're necessarily GOING to target them, but they'd like the flexibility since UCiv doesn't exactly have a huge army.
(July 16th, 2013, 13:45)Ruff_Hi Wrote: Interesting how Sullla and I look at this development differently. I was thinking they would be pissed at us in that we couldn't help them. Sullla is obviously thinking they would be just pissed at CFC.
Meh, super easy to spin that. "Sorry, our western neighbors are about to declare war on us so our military is tied down  . We tried to get them to leave you alone but they refused. Would you like our maps so you can see their land?" Something like that. In that hypothetical scenario (let's remember it's just hypothetical), UCiv isn't going to be mad at the team taht is on the opposite side of the world,they'll be mad at the invading team.
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Would it get brownie points with UCiv if we went ahead and warned them that CFC might attack them?
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(July 16th, 2013, 13:58)BRickAstley Wrote: Would it get brownie points with UCiv if we went ahead and warned them that CFC might attack them?
If CFC got themselves peace with CivFr, a NAP with us, and were building up, maybe yeah. Right now it's too soon for something like that I think. An attack on UCiv is not actually imminent by any stretch because they are 0 for 3 on those 3 things.
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I agree with Sullla and scooter, one way out is ok in this case. We badly need at least 15 addtional turns to digest German lands. 25 sounds real nice.
And remember, we can still declare war, without a dogpile on their side CFC is likely to be even more cautious at war than CP or Apolyton.
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I'm both pro-WPC and paranoid of a dogpile, but I agree with diplo with CFC is great and it will be excellent if we can get a NAP signed.
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They're already at war with CivFr (Scooter - best make sure the war declaration clause doesn't apply to already ongoing wars), and I don't think CivFr is in a hurry for peace. But one never knows.
CFC have kind of awkward borders for expansion with both WPC and Univers. They have lots of empty land between themselves and WPC (decent tiles, but no resources and mostly jungle). For Univers they have very close borders, but it's also extremely narrow. WPC will of course be a nice squishy target, but won't allow them to increase their land that much. Univers, on the other hand, isn't far behind CFC in military tech, quite possibly are teching faster than them right now, and have as many cities and civizens as CFC.
So Univers will be far from a pushover - it will be knights versus maces in the best case for CFC, and they're likely to face muskets before too long.
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Is 25 turns the right length for this deal? I feel that we'd need longer to get caught up on our infra, even if we only build an insurance army and don't have to use it. Definitely would need longer if we're in a serious war, needing to draft like crazy. Assuming CFC is willing to give us longer, anyway.
We would still have the option to crush CivPlayers with rifles if this Apoly/CP war happens, right? Just as long as we're declared upon rather than declaring?
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Ideas for the fine print:
if we declare war they have 3 turns to declare the NAP void. Or some other number, I just don't want them to try to finagle some series of actions from 10 turns ago as reason to void the NAP. This way they can't hold a sword over our head while they organize a pile.
We *must* state that 3rd party actions such as active spy missions are cause for a war dec and do not allow them an out. Otherwise before the ink is dry they'll tell CP and others that its open season to spy bonk us.
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