[Spoilers] Fintourist and Old Harry have nothing to see here

[Fintourist]

Well, my conclusion is going to be: slightly risky, but let's reroll! So if you brick want to move ahead we won't complain unless we get something boring..

[BRickAstley]

Can't properly format due to on my phone but you know the drill: Montezuma of Babylon

[Fintourist]

It's now already in the past, but here are quick comments about our initial combo: Lincoln (PHI/CHA) of Mali.

I very much agree with your previous comments Harry. The strongest way to abuse PHI is of course with Pyramids play, which is as you said very risky and main turn-off for me. Moreover even though PHI is a solid economic trait without mids, in a water-heavy map I would always prefer FIN or ORG.
I actually liked CHA as a supporting trait quite much, +2 is always useful. I also think that CHA can be used as a expansive trait if you consider it as a way to balance stacked whip unhappiness. But with nerfed slavery it's in this aspect also nerfed a bit. (It's also useful when you whip only littly as cities grow possibly faster towards happy cap)
Mali was a solid civ, with nice starting techs and an UU that is hopefully useless, but potentially saves your life even before a war is initiated. Skirmisher choke would have been a solid option, if we had ended up in a continent with just one enemy. However, Mint was pretty insignificant and there were no synergies between our traits and civ.

Anyways, we could surely have built a solid economy by growing our cities to vertically, then working specialists and bulbing our way through the tech tree. I guess the main turn-off for me was that I did not really feel like playing too "great person"-focused game..

Now with Montezuma (AGG/SPI) of Babylon I have mixed feelings.
SPI is definitely useful and AGG is also OK thanks to improved barracks. Unfortunately we still miss a real economic trait (FIN/ORG) and don't really have much to speed up our expansion. Babylon has great starting techs, but is otherwise a pretty empty civ. No synergies.

I'm still kind of dreaming of Wang Kon of Inca or something similar, but I don't know if we want to gamble with a new re-roll. If we get unlucky we might end up e.g with CRE/AGG Inca or something as anti-synergetic. With this "pick" I think we have below average or average pairing, which needs big moves to remain relevant in the end-game, but thanks to unbalanced setup and players we might get our chances.

What are your thoughts?

[Fintourist]

Btw, if stay with Monty of Babylon, we need to really cross our fingers for an Agri food resource. An opening where we need to get e.g. 2 worker techs before going for BW does not sound too great.

[Old Harry]

I'm not sure I properly understand the -25% city maintenance for AGG.

Tell me if I get this wrong: Maintenance is made up of distance to cap and number of cities - number of cities maxes out at 6 I think, so that would mean a maximum saving of 1.5 gpt per city once we're near to crashing our economy.

That doesn't sound like a lot, but I guess it lets us expand marginally harder, and once we're in the late game gives us a more efficient economy. If we get to ten cities we get 15 gpt. Does the bonus reduce with courthouses? Even if it did it might let us delay Code of Laws. Also we get to take Melee, cover, etc with the first promo on axes, maces, guns (although not on Bowmen ).

SPI is great, especially if we can last to the end game. Bowman is fine, like the skirmisher its useful early on. I guess we'll only build one Garden all game. The starting techs are about as good as we could hope for.

In spite of not really understanding AGG I think this combo is better than Lincoln of Mali in quality for the SPI and the starting techs.

Now whether to re-roll... I don't think we should, this isn't a howler and now good combos will be thinner on the ground. If we look at the whole list and see four unclaimed FIN leaders feel free to give me a kicking, but I think they'll all have gone by now.

[BRickAstley]

Yeah, I can agree this is a hard choice to make, not the super best but whatever you would get next round you couldn't veto so it's definitely a risk.

[Old Harry]

I just played a test out to t50 and didn't spot any bugs, the AGG cities discount is hard to see but with four cities city maintenance is less than 1gpt each anyway, so if this is an economic buff its not happening early on... We'll get a good start if there's an agri resource and a slow one if its only hunting- or pasture-food.

What do you guys think the odds for one of the economic traits will be in the final round? In spite of how charming and witty the RNG is I just don't see it happening. (Perhaps an RNG would prefer to be complimented on its precision and accuracy? Maybe I've ruined our chances already...)

With this combo I see us surviving the early game, treading water in a not-the-leader-so-don't-worry-about-them midgame and then coming through at the line to snatch victory... Yeah?

[BRickAstley]

What do you guys think the odds for one of the economic traits will be in the final round? In spite of how charming and witty the RNG is I just don't see it happening. (Perhaps an RNG would prefer to be complimented on its precision and accuracy? Maybe I've ruined our chances already...)

[BRickAstley]

Since you said you appreciated knowing this time, you're also the last team to decide this round. However since the leader/civ combo just went out like 5 hours ago definitely don't feel like you have to rush to decide.

[Fintourist]

Ha, I checked my last post and found 1000 typos But now I'm finally comfortably home and have more time to think and write!

First of all, has it been stated that pairings that are not selected can come up again? Anyways, after a quick count there are roughly 34 civs and 52 leaders available. So if we assume that 30 pairings have been given so far (2/3 of players re-rolled), and e.g. FIN has always been kept, roughly 6 out of 10 FIN leaders are now off the table. Top civs should be however now already taken, but since leader traits typically dominate the selection there are surely decent ones still left and in reality synergies are what truly make most civs shine. So there are definitely good pairings left, but I also think that we should not stretch our luck too far. I can estimate the odds if Brick can answer the first question

I have to admit that I somehow did not first register the city maintenance bonus from AGG. I read it and forgot it immediately So that's great news! The way I interpret the F2-interface makes me assume that the AGG-trait affects both the no. of cities and distance maintenance. My guess is that the total city maintenance is first summed up from city screens, next -25 % is applied, then the new result is used in the calculation of inflation before the final summing of all civ costs. It would be awesome if Krill, T-Hawk, or somebody could confirm this!

Anyways, this bonus might be quite significant! Small PBEM45-spoiler:

It's now 1000 AD, and before inflation my city maintenance costs are 206 gpt, which means that AGG-trait would save a total of 51.5 gpt (+1 * inflation percent). In comparison civic upkeep saving from ORG would be 79 gpt (before inflation).

As a conclusion, AGG will give a nice economic boost in the mid-game if we manage to keep expanding. However, a possible switch to State Property will "destroy" most of these benefits (In my case ~70 % of city maintenance costs come from distance)

As a summary, things are looking quite OK, and I lean towards keeping the pair. I'm mostly afraid of getting some kind of terrible anti-synergetic combination. Of course, if you Harry have a good feeling when it comes to gambling..

We missed two strongest economical traits and don't really have anything to speed up our expansion, but we have the flexibility of SPI, small culture & maintenance support and combat boost from AGG. Babylon is meh (hopefully we don't need Bowmen), but if we get an agri-resource we might manage a decent opening.

We will surely start somewhat behind compared to several other teams, but if we play damn well and use our chances.. who knows what happens. Favorable geographical position is still what really matters. So let's cross our fingers.

Btw, it's probably clear, but effective use of SPI really cries for a religion. Founding Buddhism/Hinduism would of course be perfect, but we really need a nice agri-resource start if we even want to dream about it. I would not count on it, but we'll see..

Dear lurkers:
I promise to stop being so wordy and as soon as game starts I also promise to become interesting