Rant Thread!

[darrelljs]

Well the rules allow a reload for a mis-click and there is precedent for doing so even before us. I assume minor mis-clicks happen all the time and teams decide not to go through the hassle. There is no risk we are breaking the law, and while I think its a terrible rule we should go ahead and take advantage of it. I just don't think William did anything wrong bringing it up, or making his stance known on the topic.

Also, it occurs to me that we have an admin again who is presumably reading this thread, and can inform us if we are about to doing something illegal .

Darrell

[pindicator]

Ok, if the rules allow for a reload due to misclick then we are 100% in the right for not recreating misclicks. That's pretty definitive.

[scooter]

I think this is a more appropriate thread for this type of discussion. Since it was interesting to me, I had a chat with sunrise about it. He gave me permission to post it, so I thought I would since I think it nicely lays out two opposed but reasonable opinions. Note that a few times we were typing long things and typed "over" each other, so if the order seems a little wonky, just go with it.

scooter
So I don't really want to respond to your post in thread since I think it's becoming a hijack
but why would we even need a justification for fixing a misclick? I don't get that at all.

sunrise089
it's replaying differently
maybe I'm out of the loop playing few games recently, but my understanding is play in-game, and deal with it
reloads are the exception to that, but if we'd not get a reload for a (presumably more minor) mistake I don't know how a coincidental reload for a different cause gives us permission to now play differently

scooter
I don't see any rules against replaying differently

sunrise089
is a lost combat move a "misclick?"

scooter
no, because it was a clearly intentional choice

sunrise089
I'm not really TRYING to be persnickety here, I just think we're coming from very different places

scooter
oh I understand, I'd just like to hear your perspective. and maybe disagree or agree with it :P
because williamLP posts seemed strange to me at first to even suggest that, but your opinion has weight to it to me since you've played in games

sunrise089
I see a whole basket of actions that are sub-optimal but that we play on with in the interest of keeping the game moving and forcing people to play with care and consideration, everything from lost combat to poorly moved scouts to tech planning, and I don't view miss-application of the man-to-keyboard side of the game as a special case
in all honesty, my past in competitive real-time MP probably colors my perspective a lot
because while it's no fps game, physical mechanics do play a role in game performance

scooter
yeah I get that, but honestly the misclicks have arisen more from livestreaming than the game itself, so there's outside factors here. i've played hundreds of pbem/pb turns withotu multiple misclicks in a turn like that

sunrise089
so I guess my conclusion is I see a spectrum of games for how important mechanics are - fps -> rts -> real-time civ -> slow-turn-based civ -> chess, and I don't think anything falls OFF the spectrum to the point where mechanics are completely irrelevant

scooter
so I don't think it's purely a game thing

sunrise089
I'd argue that's a cost of doing business - if we want the benefits of the livestream we deal with potential issues.

scooter
sure okay.

sunrise089
one more parallel (to me) - we were like 8 beakers over on our bulb, right?

scooter
to make things more simpler, my assumptions on misclicks are this:

sunrise089
that wasn't a misclick, but it also wasnt ex-ante unknowable like a combat result....we just didn't take the time to sim things out with TOTAL precision

scooter
if I'm playing SP, I reload on misclicks without even a shred of remorse, even if the game is competititve, UNLESS that misclick gains me some sort of advantage (RNG knowledge, tile vision, etc)
so to me, in a MP game a reload is technically "fair" under those circumstances. however, the only reason you don't always reload is just courtesy to other players and to keep the game moving. so you only reload if it's significant
so we didn't request a reload to fix a single knight going to the wrong tile. but if we happen to get the opportunity to do it over, it doesn't affect anyone if we do it

sunrise089
but I think it would be poor form for us to replay getting the 8 extra beakers, because it was incumbent on us to do our due diligence or bear the consequences, and I think pressing Numpad6 or whatever is exactly the same
[catching up]

scooter
okay yeah agreed with you, but I don't think those are parallels at all

sunrise089
agree to disagree
fyi, I DO agree with your single player interpretation
but 1) I have all the info, so if I go down a slippery slope and start to outright exploit the game I'll know and feel cheapened, and 2) I've not made a (perhaps implied) deal with the AI to live with the consequences of my in-game actions unless I have outside permission to do otherwise
and of course, like you said, it also isn't annoying to slow the game down versus the AI

scooter
I think your implication from 2) is the one that's resulting in the difference of opinion. Maybe people feel that way about RB house game rules, but we're not playing in one of those here
Anyway. in short, I run it through 2 filters: intent and impact. if I intended to do X and discovered X was a poor decision (or resulted in 8 extra beakers), you shouldn't change that

sunrise089
I agree I'm reading an implied (explicit? no idea, have not read the rules) deal where many/most others may not see one

scooter
or if I intended to do X and did Y, but doing Y and then switching to X puts me in a better position than just doing X originally, then you shouldn't change that either
yeah. well I think we have different assumptions on what's standard/fair which, fine

sunrise089
I bet if we put out a poll to the other teams on "after a reload should teams replay their moves identically" I'd win though

scooter
haha, maybe that could be true. but I would also bet that the majority of teams would not replay these misclicks if they were in this exact situation

sunrise089
100% agree
emotionally, that's why I care about this. While your argument is well made, and while I think YOU are an above board person, I detect an undercurrent of too-cleverness in these discussions, where the thing in question is below people's threshold of 'Play Legitimately' so people start pondering what they can get away with

scooter
I'm also coming off PB5 and PB8 which were purposely set up as being very lax on rules, basically the main rule being "Don't Be a Jerk" which worked fantastically. and that type of fix would have likely been totally fine in that type of game

sunrise089
I don't think OUR team would take this too far, but I do feel it, to steal the Bill O'Reilly soapbox, "erodes the moral fibre of the game" a bit, and so I don't like it if the team wouldn't be confident putting it in the open or asking the admin directly
while I'm coming off RBP7 where "be casual" was the worse call ever made

scooter
That's fair. I would not be comfortable putting it in the open, but that has more to do with the fact that we are "top dogs" which never get any sympathy. whereas WPC could ask to fix a worker misclick and no one would care
hah yeah. PB5 was a purposeful rebellion against PB7... naming system aside, it came after PB7

sunrise089
I'm not 100% consistent though....I could design a hypothetical game with people I trust and apply a very lax ruleset knowing it wouldn't be abused, but PART of my lack of worry would be to me simply LIKING the people I consider trustworthy more and not wanting to have them under my thumb

scooter
Yeah that makes sense

[darrelljs]

Continued .

Darrell: There is a big difference between a sub-optimal move and a misclick
I don't think you and scooter were even discussing the same thing.
Clearly squeezing out 3 extra FOPs by running Merchants instead of Scientists to get the bulb exactly right is an optimization that should not be allowed.

sunrise089: how is it different?
it's fixed by time and dedication to playing with care, no?

Darrell: One is an accidental mistake and one is an intentional mistake

sunrise089: aren't physical moves the same>?
what is 'accidental' in the context of a game?
I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here

Darrell: I would argue that this is an intellectual game and manual coordination has no place in deciding the outcome.
I know

sunrise089: ok, I just disagree about manual coordiantion

Darrell: Accidental is meaning to click one place, and clickign another, or hitting a hot key with units selected, or...etc.

sunrise089: I liken it to chess and the "hand off the piece" rule
obviously chess isn't a PRIMARILY physical game, mechanics are like .1%

Darrell: I don't play chess with that rule because I can't help touchign pieces

For a game like this, I agree with 2metraninja:

Who win or lose this game must not be based on misclicks, but who have better strategy/tactics/diplomacy skills.

There is an assumption of courtesy, where only significant misclicks are corrected. In the process of fixing a significant misclick, minor misclicks are also ethically correctable.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Darrell: I assume I can post this convesation?

Darrell: posted

sunrise089: back
gah, everything i say in chat is now going right to the forum
RBP1 and regoarrarr all over again!

[SevenSpirits]

Continuing from sunrise's opinion I'm going to claim that Civ IV is a pay to win game. You need a completely responsive computer, dual monitor setup, and separate computer for non-Civ tasks in order to have the lowest rate of accidental actions. Also we should keep someone logged in at all times while other teams are playing so that they get higher latency.

[darrelljs]

Continuation:

Darrell: So you agree with me now?

sunrise089: Yes, you are smart and clever and also the coolest person I know.

Darrell

[kjn]

sunrise089: and now they're making up quotes for me as well!

[BRickAstley]

sunrise089: I haven't even chatted with half of the people who claim to have done so with me.

[darrelljs]

Continuation:

sunrise089: Man 7 is a total ass hat.

Darrell:  Of course, he's Norwegian.

Edit: Damn it, people are on to me .

Darrell