Intersite Game - Turn Discussion Thread

[Commodore]

I think I recall Plako did some research for PB8 too, for what it's worth.

[ironstar]

Didn't Ruff run a bunch of EE games once?

[Sareln]

Darrell is always a pessimist.

This is true . But you have to admit, if we have a blind spot as a team, its the espionage system. Its not just the civics swap mission we have to worry about. We've already been hit by the tech steal mission. One Great Spy was worth about four Great Scientist bulbs. During war the city revolt mission removes all defensive bonuses in one turn AND wounds the units in the city. We've had lots of great discussion on military, diplomatic, city management and C&D aspects, and the facts you posted show the results. There is no discussion of substance on espionage, and how could there be since we rarely use it in our games?

Darrell

Maybe someone should step up, do some research, write up a nice summary and analysis of the system, and make some recommendations? Perhaps we could start a new thread for that? It wouldn't have to be someone with a lot of experience in the standard RB methods of winning a game, since this is out of that path. Instead what we need is someone who likes to post, has some time to burn, and a desire to contribute.

I see someone like that in my mirror every morning. I'm sure I can do more good understanding espionage than trying to outmicro novice and Sullla, or argue diplomacy with the whole team. Guess I've got a new project . (dang!)

Not sure how long it'll take, but the current turn pace should give me plenty of time before it becomes relevant.

I've started googling around, and found a couple articles on CFC; anyone who wants to help research or just pass on some recommended reading would be welcome. I'll hold off making a thread until I think I've got a decent understanding.

I'd make a thread with the questions that you're trying to answer, and we should just keep answering questions until we're happy and can write the summary. Or we can offline it, but we do have a forum after all . Perfectly happy to code-dive too.

[darrelljs]

Maybe someone should step up, do some research, write up a nice summary and analysis of the system, and make some recommendations? Perhaps we could start a new thread for that?

That sounds...perfect .

Darrell

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

<<Zargon's typically strong analysis of the game situation>>

TL;DR: Let's build an invincible defense with muskets and cats instead of pushing for rifling asap with wealth builds, because we might not make it in time and we might get revolted out of nationalism even if we do.

I love reading your posts because your analysis is so thorughly reasoned. I agree with basically everything you just said. It does seem counterintuitive to abandon the fast path to rifles and tech parity, but your reasoning is solid, and my faith that we won't be civic-swapped into oblivion is something less than strong. But then there's Scooter's take on diplomacy, which basically states that all hangs in the balance waiting for CFC to weigh in on the NAP.

Let's try to decide the most likely worst-case scenario by putting ourselves in our opponents' positions. What would each team need to gain from the war to improve their position in the game and enhance their chances of winning? It can't be just about slowing us down, though that must happen for any of them to win.

For CFC, it's pretty easy, just pull us back to them. When they stop fighting CivFR, they should still be in an outstanding position to win the game, so long as we have been kneecapped a bit by a good dogpile. So, they'll contribute enough forces to bloody us and prevent us developing our economy, building units rather than banks, etc.

For Apolyton/CivPlayers, it's a lot more complex, I think. They both have to make substantial gains against us at relatively little cost to themselves, or else hope and pray (not a viable strategy) that every other team in the game goes to war and loses more relative to the pack (not a likely outcome). How do they get these substantial gains? Tech advantage, spread the defense out against multiple avenues of attack across a very broad territory, and hope that we throw our main force against another opponent, most likely CFC. And, they'd almost have to rely on us not being able to draft a swarm of defenders. I don't see a viable strategy for either of these teams if we can draft defenders and push them to the active front on our interior lines of reinforcement. Apolotyn must have designs on former Germany. I'm less sure what CivPlayers hopes to get. Brick-by-Brick, Seven Tribes?

Anyway, I'm going very far off the subject of diplomacy, so I'll wrap it up.

--

preview edit: Mardoc, great idea, and thanks for looking into that. We'll get a lot more benefit out of that type of thing than me throwing 1000 words of hot air and hypothesis.

[Mardoc]

I'd make a thread with the questions that you're trying to answer, and we should just keep answering questions until we're happy and can write the summary. Or we can offline it, but we do have a forum after all . Perfectly happy to code-dive too.

Alright, fair enough. It will be easier with help, I'm sure .

I'll make a thread for the work in progress, and people who don't care or already have enough on their plate should just ignore it until we've got conclusions ready to present.

[Qgqqqqq]

[ A spy revolt removes defences]...AND wounds the units in the city.

I am 90% sure the second part isn't true.

[T-hawk]

Right. A culture-flip revolt damages garrison units and drops the border. A spy revolt does neither of those.

[Ruff_Hi]

Didn't Ruff run a bunch of EE games once?

He did. I will be putting my 5c worth into the EP thread.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

[ A spy revolt removes defences]...AND wounds the units in the city.

I am 90% sure the second part isn't true.

Not me.

Darrell is always a pessimist.

This is true . But you have to admit, if we have a blind spot as a team, its the espionage system. Its not just the civics swap mission we have to worry about. We've already been hit by the tech steal mission. One Great Spy was worth about four Great Scientist bulbs. During war the city revolt mission removes all defensive bonuses in one turn AND wounds the units in the city. We've had lots of great discussion on military, diplomatic, city management and C&D aspects, and the facts you posted show the results. There is no discussion of substance on espionage, and how could there be since we rarely use it in our games?

Darrell

--

I tested the "support city revolt" mission when my civ had 0% cultural control of the target city, minority cultural control of target city, and majority cultural control of the target city's central tile. In none of the cases was I able to damage the units in the garrison when successfully revolting the city.

Is the culture flip the only case where you are able to damage units? Is it possible to force a cultural flip using a spy? I could see where I could "spread culture" on the tile, but did not see an option to do a cultural flip. Did I miss something?